Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

BlueYon

Page Rank 8 and back again

Recommended Posts


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTE: As of Oct 2006, I'm not as active in this forum as I used to be, but I still work with osC quite a bit.

If you have a question about any of my posts here, your best bet is to contact me though either Email or PM in my profile, and I'll be happy to help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't see your point with any of this. Are you trying to tell us that you would not have gotten the vast majority of those 800 backlinks if you had not enabled the 'force cookie usage' and instead had enabled the 'prevent spider sessions'?

 

I'd disagree, and I don't think you've provided sufficient evidence to prove that you owulnd't have gotten those backlinks otherwise. My point was that I think you would still get just about every one of those backlinks by allowing SIDs in the URL but enabling 'prevent spider sessions'. You may have lost a few of the links, but those few links would probalby not nearly equate to the number of custoemrs you lose by forcing cookie usage.

 

Toyicebear, thats actually been tried already. See the contribtuion called 'SID Killer'. I believe this contribution does exactly what you are describing, however, there were some seious issues. One of the issues was the 'buy now' buttons that spiders do crawl, initiating a session.  A later modification to that contribution attempted to fix that, and I think was successfull, but further issues arose, and the contribution was never sucessful.

 

I am not talking teoreticaly, i have a modifyed version of the sid killers up and running on several sites....with very satisfying results.... B)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice.

 

Have you tried it with various configurations? Shared SSL, SEF Urls, etc?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTE: As of Oct 2006, I'm not as active in this forum as I used to be, but I still work with osC quite a bit.

If you have a question about any of my posts here, your best bet is to contact me though either Email or PM in my profile, and I'll be happy to help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
yes,

 

But its the whole linking and ranking postion problem the more links you have the more your site is considered important and will go higher in the rankings.

 

Google does not have that much a problem with session ids, its the other small sites that might index your site for what ever reason.

 

Check some threads on session ids.

 

http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum30/30253.htm

This may be part of your problem. PR plays a very small part in how you are ranked in the SERP's. If you and I have sites that sell the same product and google ranked considered us equal in SEO tems, the one with the higher PR would get the higher listing. On the other hand, if you have a very high PR and your site is not optimized correctly, you won't place well. Unless, maybe, if the majority of your linkbacks were not link exchanges but link references. Even then I doubt it. Bottom line is that there are many sites that place well with SID's. If yours doesn't, it is because you are not setting it up properly, not becuase you are using SID's.

 

Jack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nice.

 

Have you tried it with various configurations? Shared SSL, SEF Urls, etc?

 

Tried it with most settings, inc sef urls and also together with ultimate seo urls on one site....works greate....

 

I have never tried it with shared ssl though.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can I just point out that while everyone seems obsessed with getting a high ranking with Google that, although Google is used for the majority searches (48%) that Yahoo and MSN are used for 33.6% of the total searches by Internet users. Every seems to obssed on optimising for Google and forgetting that 1/3 of Internet users actually don't use Google. That is a hell of lot of users you are forgetting about..........

 

 

source .... http://searchenginewatch.com/reports/article.php/2156451

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tried it with most settings, inc sef urls and also together with ultimate seo urls on one site....works greate....

 

I have never tried it with shared ssl though.....

 

For some reason, I remember shared SSL being an issue with that old SID Killer contribution. I'd be interested in knowing if you're solution also suffers that problem.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTE: As of Oct 2006, I'm not as active in this forum as I used to be, but I still work with osC quite a bit.

If you have a question about any of my posts here, your best bet is to contact me though either Email or PM in my profile, and I'll be happy to help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Google is the hardest to get good placement in. If you can optimize your pages for google and get a high ranking, you are almost guaranteed a high ranking in MSN and Yahoo. In fact, you will usually be ranked hihger on those long before you are above position 500 on google. That's why most people concentrate so much on google.

 

Jack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can I just point out that while everyone seems obsessed with getting a high ranking with Google that, although Google is used for the majority searches (48%) that Yahoo and MSN are used for 33.6% of the total searches by Internet users. Every seems to obssed on optimising for Google and forgetting that 1/3 of Internet users actually don't use Google. That is a hell of lot of users you are forgetting about..........

source .... http://searchenginewatch.com/reports/article.php/2156451

 

I can get first postion with MSN n 1 month. MSN is very easy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
For some reason, I remember shared SSL being an issue with that old SID Killer contribution. I'd be interested in knowing if you're solution also suffers that problem.

 

 

Its just an modification of the old sid killer , adjusted to fit some of my clients custom sites , it is not a general version fit as a contribution, which will work on all sites no mather what.....

 

Shared SSL is something none of my clients use, so i have never tried to make it work under such an enviroment.

 

For those who wish to experiment, here are the links to 2 different sid repressor contribs....

 

Session Start Mod

 

Sid Killer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can I just point out that while everyone seems obsessed with getting a high ranking with Google that, although Google is used for the majority searches (48%) that Yahoo and MSN are used for 33.6% of the total searches by Internet users. Every seems to obssed on optimising for Google and forgetting that 1/3 of Internet users actually don't use Google. That is a hell of lot of users you are forgetting about..........

source .... http://searchenginewatch.com/reports/article.php/2156451

 

As other has mentioned google is hardest and a site which manages to gain a good ranking there usually also are already ranked high in MSN and Yahoo.

 

There is also one more thing to take notice of, recent studies show that google will give a higher click through for a similar high ranking in the listings.

 

The basis was the same amount of searches done on Google, Yahoo and MSN with a wide group of test users.

 

The difference was attributed to how Yahoo and MSN places the paid advertaizment in relation to the search result.

 

Google mainly places the ads on the right side, on some key words they will also place 1 or 2 color coded links on top of the results.

 

Yahoo and MSN places ads over, on the right side and belowe the search results on about every key word of any popularity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Google is the hardest to get good placement in. If you can optimize your pages for google and get a high ranking, you are almost guaranteed a high ranking in MSN and Yahoo. In fact, you will usually be ranked hihger on those long before you are above position 500 on google. That's why most people concentrate so much on google.

 

Jack

Can you give an example - perhaps keywords from google that can be searched in yahoo? My experience shows I can quite often get high ranking in google but this does not follow through to yahoo or msn.

 

Please note that I'm not trying to poo-hoo anything that has been said previously, I'm just concerned that other search engines are neglected.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'll PM you since I don't want the sites listed here.

 

Jack

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with what you pm'd me.

 

I don't mind sharing - my site is www.egyptiandreams.co.uk

 

Do a search in both google and yahoo for 'Gold Ankh' or 'Arm Bangles'.....I could go on.

Now tell me which has a better ranking? Now tell me I'm not missing out on 33% of web searches.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did a small test for fun in regards to cross engine listing results.....

 

Searching for the same keywords relevant for 2 products in Google, Msn and Yahoo...

 

Result for key word product 1....

 

Google - 1

MSN - 3

Yahoo - 2

 

 

Result for key word product 2....

 

Google - 1

MSN - 1

Yahoo - 1

 

Not conclusive due to the flimsiness of such test, but a good indicator that a site optimized for Google will also rank well in Yahoo and MSN

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your small test shows that statistically Google comes out higher! Thank you for showing what I am saying.......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Your small test shows that statistically Google comes out higher! Thank you for showing what I am saying.......

 

In this case it is natural that it will come up slightly higher on google, since it is optimized with an eye towards google......

 

But as you can see both MSN and Yahoo follows quite closely, and on other products the order might be recersed again.

 

Another note is that this site did not rank in google untill recently, since it was to fresh, it took 3-4 months from it was launced till these results showed.

 

The MSN and Yahoo rankings took less than 1 month from the launch to show.

 

The point i am making is that if a site is properly optimized it should have simular rankings in both Google, Yahoo and MSN.

 

Not exactely the same, since the 3 search engines uses different ranking alegorytmes.

 

And as already stated, for a newly registered domain/launced web site, google does have a 3-4 months "sandbox" periode where you will not rank well.

 

Yahoo and MSN does not have any such time barrier, and you can rank well very quickly there..even for a very fresh site.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with what you pm'd me.

 

I don't mind sharing - my site is www.egyptiandreams.co.uk

 

Do a search in both google and yahoo for 'Gold Ankh' or 'Arm Bangles'.....I could go on.

Now tell me which has a better ranking? Now tell me I'm not missing out on 33% of web searches.....

It's not a matter of sharing. The site I showed you is not mine so I have no right to list it here.

 

Because you can show a site that lists higher on one SE more than on another means nothing. Do 50 sites and see how the results run. That is what I was trying to tell you in my PM. I optimize sites for people and the result is always the same: MSN lists first, then Yahoo and finally Google. Of course, I don't track those sites once they are listed - it would be a waste of time. So over time, they may move around to where they list better on google. That wouldn't surprise me actually since the sites are optimized for google. Besides, I think you are missing the overall point. If you optimize properly for google, you are automatically optimized properly for the other SE's. So it really is a moot point it seems.

 

Jack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think you are missing the overall point. If you optimize properly for google, you are automatically optimized properly for the other SE's. So it really is a moot point it seems.

 

Jack

The point I am making is 'prove it'. I hear all this talk about optimising for Google. Yes, I've done that - so have others. Everyone is preaching Google and saying that you will automatically get just as good ranking on other sites. My experience and test prove this is not true. If you say it is then back it up. If I am definitely wrong then fine. But prove it - don't just say it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That wouldn't surprise me actually since the sites are optimized for google.

Which was my entire point about missing 33% odd of other search engine searches.........optimise for all - don't just concentrate on Google.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Which was my entire point about missing 33% odd of other search engine searches.........optimise for all - don't just concentrate on Google.

 

 

If you see the results from my small test, you will see that it is indeed optimized for and doing well in all 3...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you see the results from my small test, you will see that it is indeed optimized for and doing well in all 3...

Two searches? Do me a favour. As I said - somebody give me an oscommerce site example and prove it. Not somebody else's site. Not a site that was optimised for Google that just happens to be doing better in other search engines (although you don't track them once they are listed) etc. No one has given any evidence. Your actual 2 search example shows that statistically that other sites are lacking. Obviously if you pick some totally obscure keyword that is "totally unique" then you are going to come top on all seach engines. Show me an example using the optimisation techniques for Google where a search term also gets a decent result in the other 33% of searches.

 

Again, I'm not knocking anything. As I mentioned, I've optimised for Google and am doing very nicely, thank you. But I do think that other search engines are very much neglected and people seem to think that Google is the only search engine on the planet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BlueYon,

 

Instead of hiding your h1 tags why not wrap text that is already visible on your page and use css to make it look the same?

 

I'd say this seems a lot less riskier then cloaking yuor h1 tags because I wouldn't say its worth the risk gettnig banned from being indexed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I can get first postion with MSN n 1 month. MSN is very easy.

 

Uhh, yeah, so can I. For the keyphrase "That's the most obscure statement I've ever heard in my entire life."

 

C'mon man, don't you think people have more sense than that?

 

With all of this discussion about Google vs. the other engines, the best thing just keep in mind the guidelines for optimizing for each of the engines, knowing that they are all going to be very similar.

 

For example, both Google and MSN use the a key phrase incusion in the meta title as a very strong criteria in their indexing algorythem.

 

I know that google prefers that a meta title be no more than 9 words (confirmed). however, the shorter the title the better, and key phrase proximity in the title is also a strong criteria in their algorythim.

 

But MSN prefers that titles are no more than 7 words (actually, this is just an educated guess, I'm not sure what the *exact* number is, it just appears that it is less than Google), again, the shorter the title the better, but here keyword proximity is not a very strong criteria in their algorythim.

 

So, if you create a title that is less than 7 words, and give your key phrase good proximity (closer to the front of the title), your meta title will be optimized for both engines.

 

What Jack and Toyice are saying is that in general (not always) MSN has a little more relaxed guidelines (see key phrase proximity comparison above in the meta title) for SEO than Google.

 

Yahoo, however, is another beast altogehter. They give preferential treatment to sites that are included in their directory, which costs $300 per year, and to sites that pay for guaranteed inclusion. This is actually pretty scary to alot of SEO professionals, becuase it could be a glimpse of how all search engines will operate in the very near future. Yahoo has also drasticly changed their algorythim in recent months, as they've aquired Overture and some other smaller engines. It's hard to get a very good read on what they are doing. For now, to optimize for Yahoo, I recommend that you optimize for google, bearing in mind some of the guidelines of MSN (like the shorter meta title maximum), and purchasing an inclusion in the Yahoo directory.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTE: As of Oct 2006, I'm not as active in this forum as I used to be, but I still work with osC quite a bit.

If you have a question about any of my posts here, your best bet is to contact me though either Email or PM in my profile, and I'll be happy to help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The point I am making is 'prove it'. I hear all this talk about optimising for Google. Yes, I've done that - so have others. Everyone is preaching Google and saying that you will automatically get just as good ranking on other sites. My experience and test prove this is not true. If you say it is then back it up. If I am definitely wrong then fine. But prove it - don't just say it.

If you understand how the SE's work you would know that you can't "prove it." You can set up a bunch of test sites with different keywords and track those over time. But if 100 other sites are doing the same thing, it would take some time for the dust to settle. And when you are done, if you have position 10 on google and position 11 on MSN, who cares? Your original post quesitoned why most people ignored the other SE's. I said they didn't. They just did it in a round-about way. Now you are saying why aren't people concerned that one listing might be a little higher than the other. I just don't have the time for such folly. If my pages are in the top of google, I know it will most likely be in the top 10 or 20 for MSN and Yahoo. I would work on improving those positions of course, but worrying if one is higher than another is just a complete waste of time.

 

Jack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×