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I'm waiting.  Come on. 

Present your argument that "open source" = "financially free"...


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Posted (edited)

I need some time to read what u wrote and prepare a little to be able to correctly articulate my point so maybe tomorrow.  

I do not have any objection to for people donating. I just object to badgering

 

Edited by hungryfrank

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2 minutes ago, hungryfrank said:

I just object to badgering

Yet here you and a few others are...spreading misinformation and untruths (and in some cases resorting to personal and professional insults), replying to each other and giving each other fake likes - doing as much as you can to hurt Phoenix - whilst at the same time using some iteration of Phoenix to sell your goods and services.  

5 minutes ago, hungryfrank said:

I need some time to read what u wrote and prepare a little to be able to correctly articulate my point so maybe tomorrow.

I'll be waiting.  And please keep it civil.  Same advice to anyone else who wants to post more about how hard done by they are because they are using open source software but it's not good enough, but they won't lift a finger to help make things better.


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Most of the IT technologies run on OpenSource software.
Linux.
PHP.
MySQL.
OsCommerce.
And more, more much.
If this is destroyed, life and progress will stop.

OpenSource is one of the most important foundations of modern digital space.
The people who do this - they develop civilization.
It costs more than money.


Support forum for osCommerce in russian language - from Ashkelon. Support since 2002.

Best regards,

Fredi

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12 minutes ago, Fredi said:

OsCommerce.
...
destroyed

There are a hardcore of about 10 users of osC/CE/Phoenix who are trying to destroy the Project I embarked on to keep osCommerce alive.  One or two people alone can't do it all, and a number of businesses (whose livelihood depends on osC/CE/Phoenix) realise this and have stepped up and said "let's do it".  We even have support from ZEN CART and MAGENTO users who believe that Phoenix code will help them with their software. 

Let me say that again and be clear:  We have support for the Phoenix project from people who do not use Phoenix.

Some businesses (actually using Phoenix !!!) would rather be subsidised by other businesses rather than open their eyes to reality.  
That's fine and well, no problem - the problem comes when these hardcore group of 10 or so activists make posts telling us;

  • it's all rubbish
  • it all should be free
  • the coders don't listen
  • how terrible it is
  • how this addon and that addon should be core 
  • how we should support multiple languages in core
  • so on and so forth.

A small group of users who have a negative mindset do all the above (and more) and sometimes way way worse...even though many individuals (this small group of activists included) believe the osc ecosystem is a bad awful place ... they will not take a positive stance and say "OK what can I do to help keep the dream alive"...


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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, burt said:

There are a hardcore of about 10 users of osC/CE/Phoenix who are trying to destroy the Project I embarked on to keep osCommerce alive.  One or two people alone can't do it all, and a number of businesses (whose livelihood depends on osC/CE/Phoenix) realise this and have stepped up and said "let's do it".  We even have support from ZEN CART and MAGENTO users who believe that Phoenix code will help them with their software. 

Let me say that again and be clear:  We have support for the Phoenix project from people who do not use Phoenix.

Some businesses (actually using Phoenix !!!) would rather be subsidised by other businesses rather than open their eyes to reality.  
That's fine and well, no problem - the problem comes when these hardcore group of 10 or so activists make posts telling us;

  • it's all rubbish
  • it all should be free
  • the coders don't listen
  • how terrible it is
  • how this addon and that addon should be core 
  • how we should support multiple languages in core
  • so on and so forth.

A small group of users who have a negative mindset do all the above (and more) and sometimes way way worse...even though many individuals (this small group of activists included) believe the osc ecosystem is a bad awful place ... they will not take a positive stance and say "OK what can I do to help keep the dream alive"...

 you are certainnly within your right legally and morally to receive all the money that people have contributed to this cause. it is well deserved.  maybe because I haven't been around  for such a long time that I don't understand the new culture.  

the script works great. and it will take a while but we will all get the hang of it.

but I like the old one better. 

culture

 

Edited by hungryfrank

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, hungryfrank said:

but I like the old one better. 

culture

You mean the culture that meant:  No serious developers around ... no serious businesses around ... not maintaining code even to a point where severe security risks might occur ... no plan ... no effort ... no future for oSC ....

Ask yourself what might be the reason ... you could also ask yourself why others carts are succesful ... to me it is pretty clear - because they have an eco-system that pays the bills ..... but I might be wrong - perhaps the best developers gave their time for free and got food from the community ....🤔

Edited by azpro

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23 minutes ago, azpro said:

You mean the culture that meant:  No serious developers around ... no serious businesses around ... not maintaining code even to a point where severe security risks might occur ... no plan ... no effort ... no future for oSC ....

That is what this group of activists want.  No future for Phoenix, thereby hurting not only their own business but also all the other businesses in the ecosystem.

That is obvious by their actions (and their inactions) and by their lack of respect to those who are trying to make a future that is fair and equitable for everyone.


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2 hours ago, burt said:

That is what this group of activists want.  No future for Phoenix, thereby hurting not only their own business but also all the other businesses in the ecosystem.

That is obvious by their action grey areans (and their inactions) and by their lack of respect to those who are trying to make a future that is fair and equitable for everyone.

dude give me a break. don't you think you are over reacting


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I think what people are failing to understand is that Phoenix is sticking to it's opensource roots, anyone can download and install it. Those people that are paying are getting modules in exchange but also paying towards keeping Phoenix growing and therefore keeping it opensource. In an ideal world everyone who is using Phoenix would be paying to support it, they would get the modules they are complaining don't exist and more at a faster rate as @burt would be able to outsource some of the module development out so he can focus on making a better core.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, LeeFoster said:

I think what people are failing to understand is that Phoenix is sticking to it's opensource roots, anyone can download and install it. Those people that are paying are getting modules in exchange but also paying towards keeping Phoenix growing and therefore keeping it opensource. In an ideal world everyone who is using Phoenix would be paying to support it, they would get the modules they are complaining don't exist and more at a faster rate as @burt would be able to outsource some of the module development out so he can focus on making a better core.

My bad I thought that people that pay, get more code and access to more info, better support and so on. A reasonable business model in my opinion.  kind of a paid upgrade.

and  Burt and the team maintain the open source project because they want to. 

and Solomono has a paid version 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by hungryfrank

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53 minutes ago, hungryfrank said:

My bad I thought that people that pay, get more code and access to more info, better support and so on. A reasonable business model in my opinion.  kind of a paid upgrade.

and  Burt and the team maintain the open source project because they want to. 

and Solomono has a paid version 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Core Phoenix is open to everyone, and @burt is making the system more efficient and easier to update. In addition to this he is building modules that are being released to paid supporters. There are still free modules that do similar things, however I would suggest supporting Phoenix and helping it grow for everyone.

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On 4/11/2020 at 4:55 PM, Fredi said:

time and effort that the team spends on useless work. What is added to the functionality?

Let's have a little think on this (so called) useless work that "the team" (I suppose that is me ? and lately Matt ?) has done. 
Everything we do has a purpose and if (speaking for myself only), I truly believed that most shopowners think as you do, that would be the day I quit.

In July 2019;

  1. Pre Placed Shopside Hooks *
  2. Manufacturers Class File and usage thereof *
  3. Pre Placed Admin Hooks *
  4. Split Installer
  5. Updated sample products
  6. Updated Navbar system
  7. Updated jQuery
  8. Extra Security Checks *
  9. New Phoenix Logo made by external graphic designer
  10. Reconfigured Version Checker to tie into main osCommerce website
  11. Get rid of php5.3 specific code 
  12. Update to Stock Check system
  13. Modularize Cart Page  *
  14. Update codebase to php7.3 and testing of all pages/modules etc
  15. fix gzip system
  16. Removal of defunct 3rd party modules
  17. Update FontAwesome to v5 and change to new FA system of naming across files
  18. Update Navbar
  19. BUG Fixes and other minor improvements

In August 2019;

  1. Standardise Product Listing Layout  *
  2. Remove broken Grid/List feature
  3. Update Sort By
  4. Update FontAwesome
  5. Update Data Attributes
  6. Remove Reviews page
  7. Introduce Review Modules *
  8. BUG Fixes and other minor improvements

In September 2019;

  1. Update FontAwesome
  2. Limit Reviews to Verified Purchasers *
  3. Introduce Password Forgotten Module
  4. Introduce flexibility to Product Listings *
  5. Update Hook system 
  6. Remove Defunct modules
  7. Restyle and update Checkout Tunnel *
  8. BUG Fixes and other minor improvements

In October 2019;

  1. Flexible Icon Display
  2. Show Inactive Modules 
  3. Remove Cache System
  4. Update admin Categories for Hooking, Tabbing *
  5. Start Bootstrap Admin
  6. Remove broken Banner System
  7. Add Form Injection 
  8. BUG Fixes and other minor improvements

In November 2019;

  1. Remove broken Social Bookmarks System
  2. More Admin bootstrapping
  3. Hooks major update *
  4. Introduce Addon certification *
  5. Modularisation of Testimonials Page *
  6. Update Admin boxes *
  7. Introduce new TEMPLATE handling  *
  8. Update installation procedure
  9. Update Bootstrap
  10. BUG Fixes and other minor improvements

In December 2019;

  1. Update Sage Pay Module
  2. Update Schema Manufacturers
  3. Update Hooks
  4. More Admin bootstrapping
  5. Liberalise SQL queries  *
  6. Update Dashboard Modules 
  7. Introduce Autoloader *
  8. Hook Reviews
  9. Update LIbrary domains 
  10. Refactor Admin Login
  11. Introduce Admin Autoloader  *
  12. Update Fontawesome
  13. Hook Admin Column
  14. BUG Fixes and other minor improvements

In January 2020;

  1. More Admin Bootstrapping
  2. Review Stars & link
  3. More Security Checks
  4. Restyle Invoice/Packingslip
  5. Hooked Invoice/Packingslip
  6. Update Hooks page
  7. Default Image functionality  *
  8. Update installer
  9. Selectable address labels  *
  10. Updated 20yr old country list
  11. BUG Fixes and other minor improvements

In February 2020;

  1. Update email class  *
  2. More Admin bootstrapping
  3. Refactor Hooks for pipelining *
  4. Introduce system files *
  5. Introduce customer data mods *
  6. Introduce checkout modules *
  7. Convert Braintree to an App
  8. Hooked Printable Pages
  9. Introduce MATC *
  10. BUG Fixes and other minor improvements

In March 2020;

  1. Block Form processing by Hook/App *
  2. Introduce GDPR *
  3. Modularise Create Account Success *
  4. Introduce Advert Manager *
  5. Introduce Notification Modules *
  6. Introduce new Gallery system
  7. Update for Apache 2.4
  8. Add Hook to infobox class
  9. Prepare Switchable templates *
  10. More Admin Bootstrapping
  11. Review Stars
  12. Introduce Advert Class *
  13. Introduce PI product layout *
  14. Update FontAwesome
  15. Introduce page selector *
  16. BUG Fixes and other minor improvements

So far In April 2020;

  1. Add Sample Data
  2. Update session variables
  3. Autostart pipelined hooks *
  4. Update page selector module usage
  5. New PI modules *
  6. Nickname Reviews
  7. Update checkout
  8. Update jQuery
  9. Extend Testimonial Hooks
  10. BUG Fixes and other minor improvements

You will see some of the items above are in bold.  This is new functionality.
You will see some of the items above have a red star (*).  This is IMPORTANT new functionality.

All of the above has been done to modernise osCommerce and allow addon makers to make addons that change no (or very little) core code.
By doing this, shopowners have a much easier life.  If shopowners have a much easier life, developers have a much a easier life.  You can see the circle joining.

So, I refute your claim that Matt and I (and others) have wasted our time and effort.  I refute your claim that the above is useless.

While the above was happening over the months, we gained 63 supporters from July until now.  1 supporter pays for 1 hour of coding time.  Do you believe that all of the above has been done in 63 hours?  I know that I have put in hundreds of unpaid hours since July, and I suspect Matt is the same.  The same goes for raiwa and brockleyjohn - unpaid hours devoted to their addons, yet able to find time to help out giving hours to core code.

To those absolutely brilliant 63 supporters, you know that you guys allowed (and are allowing) Phoenix to fly high and by extension keeping osCommerce on life support.  To the others who have not yet been able or willing to start supporting...or just did not realise what it takes to run something the size of Phoenix...perhaps this post opened your eyes.

I'll end with two images;

burt_c.jpg.afacb59959b2e10535259971ff8c07a6.jpg

ecartz_c.jpg.72dd5dfb6dca7575820a5bee55d639ec.jpg

which shows that Matt and I, between us, have about 1650 contributions in 18 months.  That number excludes;

  • all the time and effort spent answer questions and giving support here at the forum and by email.
  • all the spam busting we have to do
  • all the times we have to read abuse and idiotic comments by PM, email, and in this forum
  • all the other modules that we give away for free and the support that this takes
  • and most importantly, our actual real life jobs that we have

Maybe this post has opened a few eyes as to the reality of the situation we find ourselves in???

You can either continue on as you are and end up not being a part of anything, or you can change the path you are walking on and support Matt and myself over the coming months and years.  Open your eyes, and start thinking outside your little bubble.


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And, I apologise, I forgot to mention all the people who have performed testing of new features and new ideas (some of which were just plain dumb ideas so never made into core code).    You guys giving up your valuable time allowed us to move on with implementing things into core code.

To all these people I say, publically, THANK YOU
You guys hopefully know who you are as I tried my best to give thanks at the time.


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@burt Gary thanks for that big long post above.

Its about time that these people saw all the work that has been put in by you and a few others to actually keep alive what was an outdated lump of software that had had no serious updating in 3 or 4 years (if not longer), was a security risk. Dont forget that oscommerce marketing still states that there are over 7000 free addons regardless of whether they actually work, or are even well coded. These people seem to forget that without your input they would all be using Opencart or some other software. If paid supporters get additional code to improve their stores, thats what supporting gets them. If they choose not to support they cannot expect to get the additional code, now or in the future. I think you are too generous giving away some of your work in core code updates.

Without myself and 62 other people who can actually see a future for the software, this argument would not be happening. I for one am fully appreciative of all the hard work that has had to happen, and that will hopefully continue to happen. Its not just the coding as you say, its the support and the abuse that you have to take. Its just very annoying when a certain small group of people try to spread negativity and lies about what is happening, and still dont see the benefits of what that work is doing and is bringing them. These people must learn to accept that peoples time and effort should be rewarded either fully or partially. I bet they dont offer to work for nearly free. More importantly they should stop all the PMs that are sent, and yes even I receive them from a few, and start actually being positive and start helping move this project forward, and find ways of getting other coders and shop owners interested. I know if I was reading some of the comments in the posts throughout this forum I would stay away. If they feel so strongly about their principles what are they even doing here. Go and find a piece of software that you do like.


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As a wise person once said....

If you are not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Dan

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, hungryfrank said:

Solomono has a paid version 

This would be the version where you are *forced* to pay before you can access the supposedly "open source" code.  Made by a developer with fewer than 20 posts and who advertises his products by fabricating stuff about me personally and making up stuff about Phoenix to suit his own agenda.  Good luck.

Edited by burt

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I think we have to understand that several environments coexist here. 

The base environment is ocommerce.com that was a great idea of  Harald, that project was born as OpenSource software was an innovative idea and revolutionized the market where each shopowner was allowed to have their online store.
But as every new thing there are always improvements and commercial interests are what drive changes to improvements.

That is why many talented coders took the OSC code and went off to do their own business.

In the middle, Harold got bored with the project (or surely he will have his own very justified reasons for abandoning the project).

As we know the OSC site is maintained by business partners (paypal, solomono, oscTemplates and others).
Those partners contribute money to appear on the OCOMMERCE.COM site because they want to earn money, that's what capitalist life is like, and that's fine, it's their right.

In my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) Phoenix is another business partner, Phoenix pays Harald to have his club and therefore he has the right to have commercial profits and that's fine !! No one works for free. So if some modules are given only to people who support Phoenix that in my opinion is fine. I think you have to look at things in proportion and see the progress Burt made in Phoenix. Some reward he deserves for that effort ($$$, Beers ...)!!!!

Burt took Oscommerce and improved it to a new level. As we can see above, the improvement list is huge and I am sure there is much more to come.

So I send you Burt, good luck with your project.

Best regards

Valqui


:heart: Community Oscommerce fan :heart: You'll find the latest osC community version here.

 

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There are a hardcore of about 10 users of osC/CE/Phoenix who are trying to destroy the Project I embarked on to keep osCommerce alive.

Unfortunately, Burt, you are doing a bang-up job of doing that all by yourself. :(

I would have been willing to donate both time and money to your project, but because I've been preoccupied lately with a moving into a new house and getting everything reorganized, hadn't been on here much for a while. It is more than a little disingenuous of you to complain that "nobody contributes" when you have never bothered to give a link to where I might contribute or what size of contribution you wanted; instead you removed me from your private Phoenix club, even though I don't think I've ever been one of the "whiners" that you keep complaining about - until now, anyway, and I think that I have reason.

I'm sure that now you'll claim that I'm one of your "enemies" club that you always fantasize about, but nothing could be further from the truth. I'd very much like to see this succeed, but it's obvious that I'm not wanted in your private clique.

Bruce

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6 hours ago, bcwright said:

when you have never bothered to give a link to where I might contribute or what size of contribution you wanted; instead you removed me from your private Phoenix club, even though I don't think I've ever been one of the "whiners"

Sorry, you seem to have misunderstood or missed what is posted in the club.
It says at the top of the club here - https://forums.oscommerce.com/clubs/1-phoenix/
"Inactive Member Pruning happens on a monthly basis. You may get caught up in that if you don't post - it's nothing personal - just PM me and you can be re-added if you are going to be an active member of the club."
There is also a pinned topic at the top of the club which gives all the details about how to support and contribute.

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Posted (edited)

I think if every seller was buyer centric he/she would be more successful. 

one must use its strength and work on his/her weakness. 

code was written to be manipulated. and that created the culture. created the forum and the add ons. that is what was the genius of oscommerce developers was. 

ii think the strength of oscommerce was its add ons.  and the community. without that it was a script like many. so it all came down to the culture. 

every coder used it because they could easily use the add ons for customization and would save time. and every doit yourself shop owner could use the forum to make the minimum that they need.

some would make small changes themselves and contract out the hard one. and some would write bad code, but if it was a good idea others would fix the code.

the large collection of languages.   the large collection of payment and shipping modules.  it was all. because of the genius of oscommerce coders that created the culture.

 

 

 

this is just rambling of an old man, don't take it seriously. 😎

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by hungryfrank

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8 hours ago, bcwright said:

...

Thanks for your honesty and for keeping your comments mostly civil. 

You would have been deemed an inactive member - that pruning took out those who had been members for at least 3 months and had not posted.  
There is no point in being part of the problem, so be part of the solution.

I wish you good luck on your adventure with Phoenix.


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9 hours ago, Heatherbell said:

Sorry, you seem to have misunderstood or missed what is posted in the club.
It says at the top of the club here - https://forums.oscommerce.com/clubs/1-phoenix/
"Inactive Member Pruning happens on a monthly basis. You may get caught up in that if you don't post - it's nothing personal - just PM me and you can be re-added if you are going to be an active member of the club."

Somehow I missed that; when I joined Phoenix back last summer, about the only content that I could find in the club area itself was a list of the membership - which is mostly useless unless you want to PM some or all of the members, so I mostly had been reading the Forums instead. The automatic removal being the case, since it is obviously impossible for someone who was removed from the club to see anything posted only in the Phoenix area, it would be a good idea to have either a pinned topic about it in the public area or to PM someone when they're removed; the message that I get now when I click on the Phoenix icon implies that once you're removed, you can't apply for readmission. This sounded altogether too much like blackballing for my taste, which is why I've been so peeved for the last several months. I can almost guarantee that if it annoyed me, it's likely to have annoyed other people in similar situations.

Likewise with the donations; even if a link isn't specifically provided in the public area, mentioning it in that same pinned topic would be helpful. Again, since I haven't been in the Phoenix area much (and not at all lately since I've been locked out of it), I had not seen anything like that, if it had even been there in the first place last summer.

Bruce

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7 hours ago, burt said:

You would have been deemed an inactive member - that pruning took out those who had been members for at least 3 months and had not posted.  
There is no point in being part of the problem, so be part of the solution.

I wish you good luck on your adventure with Phoenix.

Burt, if it was all due to an automatic removal and readmission to Phoenix is actually possible (unlike what the site seems to imply), then I apologize for my rant; I think my previous post to Heatherbell explains my situation well enough that there's no point in rehashing it.

At this time I'm running a shop based on a heavily modified osC 2.3.4; while I've been looking at Phoenix, at least until recently there haven't been enough hooks available to make it possible to retrofit all of the additional functionality used by my shop without making extensive Core changes, and given the rapidly evolving target that Phoenix represents, doing that for every point release would be a significant amount of work. However much of the additional functionality in my shop would probably make good starting points for add-ons for Phoenix, so I think I'd be able to make a good contribution to the Phoenix ecosystem if you're still willing to have me around.

Best regards,

Bruce

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