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Posted (edited)

I missed the tips and tricks section so i post here:
 

After investigation i figured that EAN (GTIN) is almost not used anymore.
All the product data providers appear to drop EAN (GTIN) and only use now MPN (manufacturer part number) with the associated brand/Manufacturer Name.

Kind of what i understood what is going on:
Legal Manufacturers now associate their MPN's to their Brand name.
So you now can have a product with the SAME SKU and/or same MPN, but with a different BRAND (Manufacturer Name).
The chance is minimum, yet i just want to inform.
There is for example a brand HP (hewletpackard)  but there is also (HP Office).

Same company (for our view) , yet they could handle a SAME MPN under a different brand.
My advice check on :
table products:
- products_model
table manufacturers:
manufacturers_name

If these fail fall back to GTIN or any other product codes you use.
 

Just inform!

Edited by fridgebox

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Note that Google Shopping does require use of GTIN, whereas use of MPN is not mandatory.

I suppose we should add a new field specifically for MPN?


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Posted (edited)

That is a good idea but not sufficient.
There is also a UPC much used.

To be honest, i dunno what fields are mandatory anymore.
But for sure:
- GTIN (this a mix of EAN's what can make systems freak)
- EAN 
- MPN
- UPC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Product_Code)
I seen these fields also on one of the competitions cart.
Keep in mind SKU.
(Stock Keeping Unit)
That number is basically used for your OWN Stock.
That means if you have your own distribution center (Garage with shelves).

Edited by fridgebox

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Posted (edited)

GTIN and EAN and UPC are all the same thing...

I *think* - recall looking into it quite deep before i coded it into osc, but that was a few years ago so memory hazy.

 

Edited by burt

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Sorry @burt but i think it is not so easy.

https://www.gs1uk.org/our-industries/retail/selling-on-marketplaces/ultimate-guide-to-gtins-eans-and-upcs-for-amazon-ebay-google#2

if i quote:
 

Quote

f I already have a UPC do I need to get an EAN?
No. A UPC barcode and 12 digit GTIN does the same job as an EAN barcode and 13 digit GTIN. The UPC originated in the US, but is part of the global GS1 System. So if you license UPCs from a GS1 organisation, you’ll have no problems using them globally. When a 13 digit number is required you can add a zero to the front of your 12 digit GTIN.

Quote

When a 13 digit number is required you can add a zero to the front of your 12 digit GTIN.

That is where it goes wrong with "provided" product codes.
The point i am referring to is when you start to use these code to lookup product-data-sheets from the "data collectors"
These guys not check if must be 12 or 13. (and i have no clue if it must be 12 or 13 as a shop-owner).
 

The most common sequence used to "lookup product data":
 

  private function getSheet() {

    $checkurls = array();

    if (!empty($this->ean)) {
      $checkurls[] = $this->serveradres . '?ean_upc=' . urlencode($this->ean) . ';lang=' . $this->language . ';output=productxml;';
    }
    if (!empty($this->sku) && !empty($this->brand)) {
      $checkurls[] = $this->serveradres . '?prod_id=' . urlencode($this->sku) . ';lang=' . $this->language . ';output=productxml;vendor=' . $this->brand . ';';
    } elseif (!empty($this->sku)) {
      $checkurls[] = $this->serveradres . '?ean_upc=' . urlencode($this->sku) . ';lang=' . $this->language . ';output=productxml';
    }

    return $checkurls;
  }

as you can see (ean_upc) and no GTIN that is set as 13 digits and if 12 auto-add a 0 to the field.

I not say you are wrong, but in practice it not work so simple ( i wish it would).


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Posted (edited)

Memory hazy so forgive me if incorrect (or out of date!);

GTIN is the overall name for UPC and EAN.  GTIN's can be 8 or 12 or 13 or 14 digits long.  If less than 14 digits, they have to be stored in the DB with preceeding 0's, eg;

GTIN/EAN/UPC: 1234567 
Has to be stored in DB as 00000001234567
GTIN/EAN/UPC: 123456654321
Has to be stored in DB as 00123456654321
GTIN/EAN/UPC:  1234567891234
Has to be stored in DB as 01234567891234
GTIN/EAN/UPC:  98765432198765
Has to be stored in DB as 98765432198765

What the end user then does with it...is up to them.  Shopowner may display it or change it to a barcode.  Scripts may read them and do things (eg place products in a feed) and so on.

So, boil it down;

  1. In the database GTIN aka EAN aka UPC *must* be exact 14 digits
    it may have zero's to pad it out to 14

That's it... there is nothing more needed...on the storage side.

Is it possible that some confusion arises because you are maybe working with a script that does not "follow the rules" ?

Edited by burt
misremembered 14-13

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Just to give you an idea:

At the moment i have a client with over 20 CSV's of in total around 500.000 products.
There are like 150.000 compromised data entry's.
And example i gave was the HP and HP Office, but holding a MPC ( in code above called SKU, but that is wrong)

Yet they just call it HP.
So i can never find the data-sheet for the product, unless i correct the brandname.
But a EAN or UPC would work.
But not if GTIN, as it is set char 14. (with 1 or 2 0's in-front).
 


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https://www.gtin.info/

The family of data structures (not symbologies) comprising GTIN include:

  • GTIN-12 (UPC-A): this is a 12-digit number used primarily in North America
  • GTIN-8 (EAN/UCC-8): this is an 8-digit number used predominately outside of North America
  • GTIN-13 (EAN/UCC-13): this is a 13-digit number used predominately outside of North America
  • GTIN-14 (EAN/UCC-14 or ITF-14): this is a 14-digit number used to identify trade items at various packaging levels

Note that each of these is a GTIN (bolded), but also note their name in Brackets (bolded)...this is taken from the global GTIN site.  

 


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A EAN can be a 12 or 13 digit code.

If i am correct ( not checked your latest changes) you put 1 or 2 0's infront , right if is either 12 or 13.

These one or 2 0's break the "look-up" at 3th party.
They not want GTIN, they want EAN (12 or 13 digits) UPC is most used in USA and outside USA most use EAN-13 instead. (also called GTIN-13).
🙄🙄🤪🤪🙈


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I do agree that MPN is something else entirely...unrelated to GTIN aka UPC aka EAN.


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Q:

Is it possible that some confusion arises because you are maybe working with a script that does not "follow the rules" ?


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Posted (edited)

I completely 100% agree with he GTIN 14 chars you added back then.
But to much........... and seriously TO MUCH company not follow the standard.
It are to many to ignore.
You not need to add these fields, as my post was only informative ment.
I am content.

Edited by fridgebox

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3 minutes ago, burt said:

Is it possible that some confusion arises because you are maybe working with a script that does not "follow the rules" ?

Not the script, the data providers.
The company's that deliver the csv's.


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Posted (edited)

Just a quick question.
if i now insert a 12 or 13 digit code in the system (phoenix)
Does it add a one or two 0's in front in the DB field?
( do not blame me for not testing, as i never use the admin)

 

of course i ment the GTIN field "new product"/"product edit".
 

Edited by fridgebox

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Then the company that delivers the CSV's needs a better developer on board!  Email them?

In osC;

  • GTIN exists - has done since 2015/2016 (ish). 
    That covers EAN and UPC as described above.
  • If MPN is now needed...simple enough to add. 
    It's not required by (eg) Google Shopping, but I realise there are more sites/services than G-shopping out there.

Thoughts anyone?  MPN needed in Core.

SKU is something different again - at the moment osC has no stock checking other than on the main product and I assumed (rightly or wrongly) that most shopowners would be using the "products model" as some type of "SKU" factor?


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1 minute ago, fridgebox said:

Just a quick question.
if i now insert a 12 or 13 digit code in the system (phoenix)
Does it add a one or two 0's in front in the DB field?
( do not blame me for not testing, as i never use the admin)
 

https://github.com/gburton/CE-Phoenix/blob/master/admin/categories.php#L229

Pads it out to 14.


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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, burt said:

Yes i think that is where it goes wrong your end, i not going to blame you.
But you posted it yourself.
It can only be a MAX of 14 chars

Quote

The family of data structures (not symbologies) comprising GTIN include:

GTIN-12 (UPC-A): this is a 12-digit number used primarily in North America
GTIN-8 (EAN/UCC-8): this is an 8-digit number used predominately outside of North America
GTIN-13 (EAN/UCC-13): this is a 13-digit number used predominately outside of North America
GTIN-14 (EAN/UCC-14 or ITF-14): this is a 14-digit number used to identify trade items at various packaging levels

Nothing say must have 0's in-front.
Now you see why  can come in trouble ;)


Just to let you know, there are product codes start with a 0 .
 

Edited by fridgebox

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Just as a fun side note..........
You have no idea how much work this had cost me in the past and howe much i cursed you for it (and that was only for the part to find out what caused it).

 

🤣


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Posted (edited)

It is a requirement to store the GTIN as a 14 digit number.

What you (end user) does with that 14 digit number...is outside the scope of the storage.

Quote

Retailers who accommodate GTIN have made important changes to their original database structures because the full 14-digit data string must be processed and stored.

https://www.gtin.info/

Edited by burt

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You again 100% right.
BUT.........
how do i know what is the:
"Original Encoded Data" (Highlighted in green).

I hope you getting my point.
For representation, hey.... that is OK.
But use as reference, just storing 14 digits does not do the trick.
Inside these 14 digits, there is STILL a reference.

 

screenshot-www.gtin.info-2019.08.23-00_52_11.png


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Posted (edited)

Just as question for you.
Do you understand what mean the GTIN-14 digits, and how it used?
 

Nah i not going to ask... i go explain.

Imagine if 1 box with all the same laptops (HP knows in that BOX he have 20 pieces of the EXACT same laptops).
Now try to translate that information to a regular shop-owner and force him to use 14 digits GTIN on his store?

The regular shop-owner might buy that box with 20 laptops and a GTIN-14.
But i assume he sell them pér 1 at a time.
For his shop a 14 digit code is useless as a key-word for example.
He would be more helped with a GTIN-12, GTIN-13, GTIN-8 on his product info page.... don't you think?

I'm just saying.
( as the GTIN-14 represents a box with 20 laptops)
( a tray with 24 coca-cola)
( a pallet with 2000 box of tampons)


To be honest, not even per se holds the QTY.
as qty could be mentioned separated.


 

Edited by fridgebox

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7 hours ago, burt said:

Then the company that delivers the CSV's needs a better developer on board!  Email them?

In osC;

  • GTIN exists - has done since 2015/2016 (ish). 
    That covers EAN and UPC as described above.
  • If MPN is now needed...simple enough to add. 
    It's not required by (eg) Google Shopping, but I realise there are more sites/services than G-shopping out there.

Thoughts anyone?  MPN needed in Core.

SKU is something different again - at the moment osC has no stock checking other than on the main product and I assumed (rightly or wrongly) that most shopowners would be using the "products model" as some type of "SKU" factor?

In theory Google Shopping accepts MPN + Brand as identifier. In practice their feed checks throw a lot out for lacking a GTIN - but they may be reinstated on appeal.

It's not always easy to differentiate between MPN and model in provided data but they're not really the same. Often the mpn contains the model with extra stuff (eg UK version not EU) and is less memorable. The MPN/model is an important bit of info for a lot of retail products and it can be useful for search in those cases but more the model than the mpn. Product schema has both model and mpn.

If running a separate stock system, I usually advise people to use products_model on osc for their own sku (to more easily display and search on the site), include the model in the product name and add a field for mpn for use in feeds and so on.

I think it would be useful to have mpn in core and standardise this but I wouldn't place a high priority on it.


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@fridgebox I'm afraid I think that you are expecting too much of the GTIN in osc. Osc is an online store and it's the retail barcode. It's the one on the box that you scan at the till and the one that you tell to Google Shopping. Depending on your country it's going to be an EAN, a UPC or a JAN. IIRC then there's a setting for the length you want to display on the site.

Now if you build a site for a distributor, with customisation to show wholesale prices to trade customers as well as retail prices to retail customers you might need to also add additional barcode fields as part of that.

All the extra codes and the relationships between them you want to use to drive availability information, you have to cater for in your interface building. There is no way that you should expect osc to have a complex enough model of stock units in the store, delivery units to the warehouse, purchase units from the supplier, batches from the manufacturer and so on - that's way outside its scope! The stuff you are doing is complex and I don't think you can manage it properly trying to plug feed files straight into osc. I've written reams of middleware to do it.

If you are having trouble with the zero-padding of the data in osc you can just use string manipulation in your sql to cut it back to the required length, or use a numerical comparison.


For a new install or if your store isn't mobile-friendly, get the community-supported responsive osCommerce (Phoenix).

here: https://github.com/gburton/Responsive-osCommerce/releases

Working on generalising bespoke solutions for Quickbooks integration, Easify integration and pay4later (DEKO) integration at 2.3.x

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9 hours ago, fridgebox said:

Do you understand what mean the GTIN-14 digits, and how it used?
 

Nah i not going to ask... i go explain.

The box/tray/pallet would (almost certainly) have a different Identifier than the individual items inside.


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2 hours ago, BrockleyJohn said:

I think it would be useful to have mpn in core and standardise this but I wouldn't place a high priority on it.

:thumbsup:


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