Responsive vs Normal

[♥Dan Cole 547]

I don't think new users are going to find it in the add-on area either so while it doesn't hurt to do that, I don't think it will help much.  I think as Jack says it really needs to be posted in the download area or finally be accepted/released as an official version.

 

Dan

[♥bruyndoncx 260]

Could it be the official beta version for the 2.x series and listed as such on the download page ? ( a little bit like codeception does it, pointing to github to get the source (zip))

[MrPhil 648]

It would be great to see a link to 2.3.4BS on the download page, even if 2.3.4BS is not to be made an official version (2.3.5?), but I'm not going to hold my breath. Harald (and anyone else with power over the site... Jan?) seems to be disinclined to do this. Remember how long it took to de-promote 3.0 (warn that it's not suitable for production use) on the download page? Maybe he honestly thinks that he'll have 2.4 out "real soon now" and it's not worth the bother of putting 2.3.4BS on the page, but I wish he would publicly commit to a release date, then. If he can't guarantee that 2.4 (based on 2.3.4BS) will be out within 90 days (at most), he ought to put 2.3.4BS on the download page. At least it will then have some sort of official blessing, and will be visible to new users.

 

There should be some sort of established policy for community-supported branches being placed on the download page. If it's been around for some certain amount of time, and seems to be relatively stable, and enjoys wide support on this forum; then go ahead and put this branch on the download page. Even more so if it looks like it can take over as the base for the upcoming official release. On the other hand, if it's a divergent branch that is unlikely to be official in the future, perhaps it should not be on the main osC download page.

[♥Tsimi 525]

I have no comment regarding where 234BS should be made available but what I kinda feel desturbing is the word "community build". Ok some of us tested 234BS and gave feedback and even fixed some bugs but as far I can remember the final decision as to what goes in or out was always in Burts hands. And now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Burt a Team member? So it is somewhat an osC "official" version developed by a Team member but just not approved from the other Team members.

I mean the non-BS version of 234 also gets bug reports and also gets tested by community members but they don't called it community version.

[Hotclutch 203]

I have no comment regarding where 234BS should be made available but what I kinda feel desturbing is the word "community build". Ok some of us tested 234BS and gave feedback and even fixed some bugs but as far I can remember the final decision as to what goes in or out was always in Burts hands. And now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Burt a Team member? So it is somewhat an osC "official" version developed by a Team member but just not approved from the other Team members.

I mean the non-BS version of 234 also gets bug reports and also gets tested by community members but they don't called it community version.

 

There are 2 types of team members, community team members and core team members. You can see their names when you click on the link called moderating team from the homepage. The fact that someone like Burt is the gatekeeper for the community build is a good thing IMO, otherwise you would probably end up with a mess. Also the fact that the Administrator of this forum allows a download link from these pages to the community build does give it some "officialness". The reason I say that the community build would do better as an addon, is because some people no doubt come here, know only to look at the download page + the addon site, if they don't find anything there they may leave, with doubts about downloading anything from an external source. It can and probably should be a locked addon in that case.

 

It's quite evident that the activity on this forum has been reduced to almost nothing. It's not good when people's opinions and valid concerns get shut down, and I don't think the OP of this thread should be labelled as negative either.

[burt 5,612]

 

desturbing is the word "community build"

 

1. As @@Hotclutch rightly points out, my membership is as Community Team, which is somewhat different to Core Team.  

Core Team does what they do, Community Team does what they do.

 

2. If you cast your mind back over the last 24 months or so, we had a number of really good threads going on (off the top of my head, "responsive design", "categories and navigation", "seo" and there were more), which the community had an input to.  

Those ideas led to coding sessions that led to the Responsive build. 

 

3.  When I asked for feedback on code, and testing, who stepped up?  

The community and this has really helped to drive osC forward.

 

And you don't like that it's called the Community Build??    :thumbsdown:  :poop:

 

I guess whatever was done, whether by me or by someone else, would not be to everyones taste. 

[♥Dan Cole 547]

Community Build?  

 

I've always liked it.  It probably gives the community more credit than it deserves, since most of the effort came from a few, but it is inclusive and speaks to how it came about.   What can possibly be wrong with that?

 

Dan 

[♥Tsimi 525]

I couldn't care less what 234BS is called but have you ever considered that because of THAT word, community build, the core team wouldn't accept this as an official version? The core team didn't work on it, didn't give any input therefore they won't put it in their official website for download. If they cannot support it then they won't offer it as official download.

So people saying make this an official release should forget about it, it won't happen.

 

If that should be the case then the only right thing to do is to upload it to the addons section where all community stuff is or should be available. And even then I am sure people won't find 234BS the first time they look for a e-commerce software.

 

@@burt I always thought you are one of the core members but it seems like I was wrong.

[♥14steve14 657]

The whole trouble seems to be the visibility of the BS version to new people to oscommerce, not just this forum. Many people install oscommerce to try, through their hosts one click installer. I bet we have all done it in the past - right. They look see what is available, see that it is not responsive, and uninstall it again. They dont go to forums and look to see if there is an addon available. They just go else where. There is little point in waiting around to see what happens, they want a website now. The need for a responsive website has been required for a few years now, so you can see just how far behind oscommerce is. The community stood up and did something.

 

It would be nice to see the BS version as an addon, but someone has to keep updating it then. If bootstrap changes, or what ever, it will need a new version uploaded. The more versions available the more confusing it will become, and the more work there is for someone. If the addon gets locked to only one uploader, what happen if he gets really fed up and goes somewhere else. If it gets opened up so everyone can upload to it, what stops it becoming a mess like most other addons.

 

As to people making addons for an addon, I see nothing wrong with that as long as the addon makers stipulate that you need the first addon to make it work. If it was available as an addon, other developers may come along and help the few remaining ones here to create new things and move oscommerce forward, because the core team are seen to be doing nothing on that front. (Sorry to keep bashing them.)

 

What ever happens to it either becoming an addon or not, cannot really harm the reputation of oscommerce. Something needs to be done to make BS version more visible. May be everyone that uses it could add the addon location to their signature or something, which may increase its visibility. Failing that, move it away from oscommerce, release it as its own version of a shopping cart, and see what happens. Again it cant do any worse than the current version. A new name may attract more developers just to see what it is like.

[burt 5,612]

That's a good post Steve.  

 

You are correct that the problem is visibility ... but do we want new users to come to this forum ??

 

What would they see if they look a little deeper ... petty bickering and mud slinging.  I know for a fact that potential users of this software are put off by the amount of posts here which all say the same thing, and then descend into open arguments and circular discussion that goes nowhere.  

 

Over the past 24 months I've tried to react less to trolling, but it just gets harder and harder not to do so.  Even in this thread, I've been called out multiple times (I don't know why my name is being mentioned so much), I've tried not to take it personally :(  Last night received a very shitty email from someone who has not posted at this thread but wants to tell me how I'm killing osCommerce, thank you very much to that lovely individual.

[Jack_mcs 1,129]

Maybe I'm missing it but I don't see any "petty bickering and mud slinging" or "calling out." This thread is a discussion about what should and could be done. I don't think any posts in it attack anyone. It is the only way we all have to post such thoughts. It is doubtful that anything will change until Harold steps in but things will definitely not change if the problem is ignored.

[♥Gyakutsuki 155]

@@burt, Everyone on this forum know your work, the problem is not you, but the problem is  always the same problem since the beginning, the communication and action is very slow.

Communication : to have 3 Osc is no good (BS, gold, normal). That's a big problem. Maybe is  the time for the team member to have a conversation about that and take decision. That want community.

I Know and Harald said on this forum, the work on BS will be integrated inside the next version. 2.3.x

For me Osc BS is mature to be official and can be the 2.3.x with bootstrap v2.x

 

Maybe inside the team, you must someone specialised in communication can be interesting and could be manage all this aspect with the community

I don't know the rules with Harald and what you can do, say and no can't do, say. Harald like to manage himself.

 

Action : Sometime the development is quickly and sometime the development does'nt exist. The frustration is also here. For the 2.4, 6 month after there is nothing to do. The problem is technology evolve.

 

Some people are trying to propose ideas and I think is good for the debat.

[Mort-lemur 168]

I really dont know why this arguement is still going on - it rears its head every few months, daggers get drawn, tempers flare, people take their ball home then it all blows over until the next round......

 

Everyone has a view, and is entitled to that view so shouldnt be beaten up for having and sharing that view - If we all thought the same we would all dress alike, eat alike etc ets and the world would be a boring place.

 

My personal view is that OSC in either its 2.3.4 or 2.3.4BS versions is an excellent product, and I have stayed loyal to it for many many years and it has and continues to serve me well - I often get compliments regarding our website.

 

Again another personal view is that the Developers and Owners of OSC are coders and struggle to realise the enormous holes in the way that OSC is "sold". If you compare the following three landing pages:

 

https://www.oscommerce.com/

https://www.prestashop.com/en/

http://www.opencart.com/

 

Then you will see what I mean - the OSC landing page does not even have a "Download Here" button.

 

In my personal view the Developers / team members need to stop being so arrogant and try to put themselves in the position of a newbie looking to find some software to set up a store - once in this mindset, which of the above links would you use? Neither of the latter two links tell prospective users to go off to some wierd developer place called Github to download some software - they can simply press a button to download - or another button to get paid help etc.

 

OSC really is an excellent product, but the marketing and public image really stinks (personal view) If the core team dont have the time or inclination to work on this part of the system then perhaps it is time some power is delegated to the community to give the whole thing an official facelift and make oscommerce.com the place to get all things OSC.

 

If we are not careful in 12 months time the only people using OSC or frequenting the forum will be the developers - without "customers"

 

Thank you for reading my rant!

[MrPhil 648]

...have you ever considered that because of THAT word, community build, the core team wouldn't accept this as an official version? The core team didn't work on it, didn't give any input therefore they won't put it in their official website for download. If they cannot support it then they won't offer it as official download.

 

I certainly hope that's not the attitude of the core team! Since when are they doing all the support? It's a community effort! The core team cannot work in isolation from what the community wants, is saying, and is doing. Unless the 2.4 (or 2.3.5) release featuring responsive design is literally just around the corner, the core team needs to adopt 2.3.4BS as an interim release (officially 2.3.5, or maybe 2.4, depending on how close it is to what they've been working on). They cannot suffer from "NIH" syndrome and leave the osC community hanging for years on end while they perfect their current project.

 

I fully agree with those who state that most new osC installers are going to use either the official download (regular 2.3.4) or a "one button" installation (most likely featuring regular 2.3.4). A large portion of those are going to see it's non-responsive, and abandon any further thought of using osC. Pointing to Github or providing an add-on is useless to the vast majority of potential users. If the core team continues to refuse to meet this demand for a responsive base osC, it is the duty of the community to fork osC (presumably under a different name) and leave the core team behind. We have to respond to what the market demands, and what it is demanding these days is responsive design!

 

When is the core team going to make an official declaration about this?

[piernas 152]

Last 4 people to reply have shown the exact reason why forward momentum is very hard to achieve and even harder to maintain.  

2 people say "no", 2 people say "yes" to the idea of making it an addon.

 

Yes, each one of us has our own understanding of the situation. But I'd say all of us (or near all) agree 2.3.4BS must be presented as 2.3.5 official, the sooner the better, and keep working on next version/revision/release from there. Your beast works, is great and tested. And needs to be made official.

 

I don't want to see the same that happened with 3.0 again with 2.4, coming to the forum periodically to see nothing has changed. Plus, I'm sure another year of wait and the drain of old users will be too much to recover.

 

And, as others said before: Here we are a bunch of shopowners, sellers, who tries to sell their own goods improving our stores, who can't understand how this software is being sold so badly to us. For example, see the landing page, latest news link from... December 2014!!!

 

When I try a software (and I do it very often) and see its main page like this one, I loose most of my interest as it looks abandoned (unless I don't have another better choice, then I enter the forums). And even worse if I enter the forums and find the 'News and announcement' section to find the latest release was almost two years ago and that the 'alma mater' of the software does not actively posts on the forums no matter how many times he's mentioned.

 

This was posted 21 April 2015 on http://forums.oscommerce.com/topic/407526-v240-beta-roadmap-pre-announcement/?hl=roadmap

 

 

Thanks to the work of Gary and the community, v2.4.0 beta 1 will be available this month with the new responsive template design based on Bootstrap.

 

Nine months ago and no further news from core member(s). What would think a newbie that reads this after digging the forums?

 

@haraldp if you still want this software alive please talk to us! If you're too busy to mantain it think you should give @@burt and the rest of us the powers to keep going on with this project and not let it die slowly.

[♥Gyakutsuki 155]

Question,

 

Is possible to have a pool on the forum ?

 

Do you want osc 2.3.4BS come the official release ?

Yes

No

No Idea

[greasemonkey 190]

Question,

 

Is possible to have a pool on the forum ?

 

Do you want osc 2.3.4BS come the official release ?

Yes

No

No Idea

 

@@Gyakutsuki .... Sure good idea.... but will it matter?

[♥kymation 631]

Not so sure about a pool, but I could go for a hot tub right now.

 

Regards

Jim

[burt 5,612]

I think it would be wise to stop poking and prodding.  If any of you want to be Captain Of The Ship...then you should go do it, see how much it takes over your life.  And see how much support you will actually get when you start making decisions that people don't agree with.

 

And do not mention my name with regards to forking, I have zero interest in doing so.  

 

A very wise member here has this to say;

 

 

what is the problem really, all code is out in the open just for grabs

 

And I fully agree.  It's all there ready for someone to make an "action" rather than more "words".