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14steve14

More talk about the future of osCommerce

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It is strange that you guys are losing clients.  I am migrating clients from other carts (including that "holy grail" Magento) regularly.  Perhaps our client bases are different, I don't know.  What I do know is that I find it hard to reconcile that you've both lost clients, yet neither of you @@kymation @@Jack_mcs gave much (if any) time to this responsive build in the last 14 months.

 

@@MrPhil @@Mort-lemur ;

 

I've been releasing almost weekly (sometimes multiple times per week) to the EDGE build.  

And the stable GOLD build was made available (and has not changed since).


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IF YOU MAKE A POST REQUESTING HELP...please state the exact version
of osCommerce that you are using. THANKS

 
Get the latest current code (community-supported responsive 2.3.4.1BS Edge) here

 

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What I do know is that I find it hard to reconcile that you've both lost clients, yet neither of you @@kymation @@Jack_mcs gave much (if any) time to this responsive build in the last 14 months.

 

But that really points out the general topic of this thread. As mentioned, I had no idea this was to be the next official version until a few weeks ago. Why would I spend what little precious time I have on someone's pet project, which is what I thought it was? Likewise, why would a new customer try something that is not official. It takes too much time and effort for most non-technical shop owners to get a shop going. They don't want to have to do it twice.

 

I realize you don't want to release it until you see it as ready. I delay releasing some addons for that reason and it can add months to the release date. But at some point I have to realize I will always have some change to make to it and that it is time to release it. I think it is long past due for the BS version to be released.

 

I also think that once it was released, it would be more widely used and more posts would appear detailing problems and the developers here would be more likely to find a fix for those problems. That is how all of the previous versions worked and they were successful. There is still a strong community here willing to help. Let them help the way they feel comfortable with, not in the ideal way where all problems are fixed first.

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Magical unicorns arguement - some will always say "why release it without this" - have to draw a line somewhere, bite the bullet and release it into the wild..........

 

It just doesn't make sense.  2 weeks ago YOU were asking for more stuff to be added to the core.  Now you say release it.

 

Damned if we do, damned if we don't.


This is a signature that appears on all my posts.  
IF YOU MAKE A POST REQUESTING HELP...please state the exact version
of osCommerce that you are using. THANKS

 
Get the latest current code (community-supported responsive 2.3.4.1BS Edge) here

 

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BS version to be released

 

Jack it's available and has been for over a year  :-


This is a signature that appears on all my posts.  
IF YOU MAKE A POST REQUESTING HELP...please state the exact version
of osCommerce that you are using. THANKS

 
Get the latest current code (community-supported responsive 2.3.4.1BS Edge) here

 

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@@burt  I have offered several times to help, within the constraints of the time I have available to work on osCommerce. Most of my offers have been ignored. In one case you told me to go ahead with the installer, then did it yourself when I didn't have it finished in a few days. Sorry that I couldn't work to your schedule, even though you gave me no idea of what that schedule was.

 

So let me offer one last time. I'm willing to help with this effort, provided that you produce the following:

  1.  A plan. Or roadmap, or whatever you want to call it. In writing.
  2.  A schedule. Also in writing.

I have over 40 years experience in industry, most of it in very large projects for large corporations or government. I have been responsible for many millions of dollars of deliverables. I would have run away from any of those projects that did not either have those two items already well documented or want me and my team to produce them.

 

Do you really want help with this? Show me.

 

Regards

Jim


See my profile for a list of my addons and ways to get support.

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Jack it's available and has been for over a year  :-

 

If its been available for over a year, why has it not been released officially as the next step. If in that year people and developers had known it was the next stage in the development others would have worked on committing time and money into developing addons. A years testing is plenty of time to iron out the flaws and get it official. At the end on the day it is not even available in the addons area.

 

As @@kymation says if there was some form of plan in place that is made available to others and not just in people heads, or kept a total secret, others will help with the development. Once a plan is in place coders will start altering and updating their existing addons to work with a known new version. They will not waste their time and resources on something that is currently just swimming but not far off of sinking. How many adons would have been available in that year had people known. Instead it will be released and there will be no extras available and people will still go else where.

 

Some are saying that BS version is not ready. Its being push to existing store owners, as has already been said further up this thread, so must be workable and useable. Release it, alter the oscommerce website and let everyone know its now BS. Sell it and get new people involved. As with the 2.3 release it is always possible to give regular updates, which can be mentioned in the admin panel of websites. So if once it gets used more and a bug is found, release it and let people know. Give simple instructions in a file and let them update it. Most store owners can read and copy and paste, but many cannot be bothered with github.


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Before installing the official version of oscommerce first look at a responsive version here

It's very easy to over complicate what are simple things in life

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That is not the way it went.  Talking is not the same as doing.

 

You offered to do something and asked me what.  I said do the installer as it'll get you onto Bootstrap and is an easy task.  I then waited for weeks.  When I contacted you said you did not have time.  So I THEN went ahead and did the code changes in 90 minutes.  

 

Now, to get involved, you set me parameters "do this", "do that".  No.  You can easily see what needs doing in the "upcoming thread", take charge of something and do it, or don't.

 

This is a COMMUNITY spare time project.  I will not set a schedule when it is the COMMUNITY doing the work.


This is a signature that appears on all my posts.  
IF YOU MAKE A POST REQUESTING HELP...please state the exact version
of osCommerce that you are using. THANKS

 
Get the latest current code (community-supported responsive 2.3.4.1BS Edge) here

 

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If its been available for over a year, why has it not been released officially as the next step. If in that year people and developers had known it was the next stage in the development others would have worked on committing time and money into developing addons. A years testing is plenty of time to iron out the flaws and get it official. At the end on the day it is not even available in the addons area.

 

As @@kymation says if there was some form of plan in place that is made available to others and not just in people heads, or kept a total secret, others will help with the development. Once a plan is in place coders will start altering and updating their existing addons to work with a known new version. They will not waste their time and resources on something that is currently just swimming but not far off of sinking. How many adons would have been available in that year had people known. Instead it will be released and there will be no extras available and people will still go else where.

 

Some are saying that BS version is not ready. Its being push to existing store owners, as has already been said further up this thread, so must be workable and useable. Release it, alter the oscommerce website and let everyone know its now BS. Sell it and get new people involved. As with the 2.3 release it is always possible to give regular updates, which can be mentioned in the admin panel of websites. So if once it gets used more and a bug is found, release it and let people know. Give simple instructions in a file and let them update it. Most store owners can read and copy and paste, but many cannot be bothered with github.

 

Sounds like a good way for those who "talk" but dont "do" to continue doing nothing.  At least you are in the game now :)

Edited by burt

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IF YOU MAKE A POST REQUESTING HELP...please state the exact version
of osCommerce that you are using. THANKS

 
Get the latest current code (community-supported responsive 2.3.4.1BS Edge) here

 

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It just doesn't make sense.  2 weeks ago YOU were asking for more stuff to be added to the core.  Now you say release it.

 

Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

 

I have to agree with Gary here. He did ask for help from store owners and only one person bothered. It took me 10 minutes to list a few of the addons I use and also a few other alterations that I made to make my store work how I wanted it to work. I gave him reasons for using the addons and reasons for the changes made. He has been in touch since about that list and says he will be in touch again. Thank you Gary for taking the time to listen.

 

I can give help like that as I am no coder. When others were asked they did nothing proactive.


REMEMBER BACKUP, BACKUP AND BACKUP

Before installing the official version of oscommerce first look at a responsive version here

It's very easy to over complicate what are simple things in life

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One of the reasons I personally did not provide a list was that the particular functions I use in my shop would not suit everyone - hence they should not really be considered as core inclusion candidates.

 

Even if they were for inclusion in the core who is actually saying that these should be included in a day 1 official release? that would surely put the whole release back months......

 

I just cant understand why the excellent community (mainly @@burt) work so far is not released as some form of official version as a lot of threads on the forum re-updating old sites state that the user should update to the latest BS standard - which is quite difficult to find with it not being on the OSC site....


Now running on a fully modded, Mobile Friendly 2.3.4 Store with the Excellent MTS installed - See my profile for the mods installed ..... So much thanks for all the help given along the way by forum members.

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@@burt  That's not quite true. I did work on it, and nearly had it completed. I don't know Bootstrap as well as you do, so it should be no surprise that it would take me longer. Still, if you want to brag that you're faster than I am, I'll grant you that.

 

The "upcoming thread" has a clear list of what needs to be done? Where is this "upcoming thread", cause it's not one that I've ever read. Please provide a link.

 

So you want me to support your private "community" project? No thanks. I'll continue to support the official osCommerce releases, and the Addons that I have made for them. I will not contribute to your private empire.

 

Regards

Jim


See my profile for a list of my addons and ways to get support.

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post-69-0-24713300-1426090683_thumb.jpg


This is a signature that appears on all my posts.  
IF YOU MAKE A POST REQUESTING HELP...please state the exact version
of osCommerce that you are using. THANKS

 
Get the latest current code (community-supported responsive 2.3.4.1BS Edge) here

 

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Clearly the secret plan is working.

 

Regards

Jim


See my profile for a list of my addons and ways to get support.

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I think I need to be the voice of reason. I want to see oscommerce improve and after years in the doldrums for it to finally be able to compete with its competitors. If there is no hope of this ever happening admit defeat and close oscommerce down. Stop wasting peoples time and effort on the project. Someone needs to man up and make a decision as to where oscommerce is heading and who it is aimed at, what should be included and how it should work. let everyone know what is decided and all work together to achieving targets. Add all the developers here that make addons or could give help to the official project onto the core coding team, make them all feel wanted and needed and maybe, just maybe they will all start pulling in the right direction. Many of the coders on here have specialist skills in particular areas that could be used to improve and better oscommerce, so use them if they want to help.

 

For at least the last 12 months there has apparently been an unofficial fork of oscommerce which included BS. It was never good enough to be released officially, and has since been superseded to another version, but is still not fit for purpose and is not official. Neither have been available from the addons area, and probably never will be. I do hope I am getting this right. As no one really knows where oscommerce is heading many developers are not improving or updating their addons as it may or may not be a waste of their time. I can fully understand this. No one is prepared to write a plan, roadmap or what ever so as usual nothing gets done, or if it does people complain because they are doing it all and getting no help.

 

There also seems to be some animosity between developers on here. For what ever reason, no one is really pulling in the same direction. I think this forum should go back to how it was, and to not allow any commercial services or products to be mentioned in posts and in signatures, apart from in the paid help area regardless of whether that member is paid up full member or what. Lets level the playing field. This forum should only give advice on anything related to the officially released version of oscommerce and any addons that are available from within the addons area. The only off site advertising should be available to any member who is prepared to pay for it, and it should only be available at the top of the page. Hopefully its then fair for everyone.

 

If people want to work on a forked version that may or may not ever be added to the official version it should be done else where. This will reduce any confusion to developers and shop owners who may be seeking help or advice on their store or code, as in my view there are too many official and unofficial versions available. Those wanting help or advice when creating new versions should come on to the forum and ask, but they must listen and take notice of the answers they are given, as at time things here are very heavy handed. Any addons that have been created for non official versions of oscommerce should be removed, or at least moved to somewhere where they will not cause confusion. If it means that someone has to go through every new addon to check, I will volunteer for the job as it will be something I can do.

 

If support is stopped for all unofficial versions shop owners may get the help they need without being asked what version they are using, as there is only going to be the official versions available from the oscommerce website. Whilst there may be variations of the official software help will be easier to give.

 

That should hopefully improve the atmosphere here at times as sometimes it is horrible. If I was looking for an eCommerce package and I came here I would use another platform just because of what I read in some posts and the attitude of some people.


REMEMBER BACKUP, BACKUP AND BACKUP

Before installing the official version of oscommerce first look at a responsive version here

It's very easy to over complicate what are simple things in life

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The upcoming changes that you haven't seen is here.   Reap the rewards at the end when you can move your clients over to responsive.


This is a signature that appears on all my posts.  
IF YOU MAKE A POST REQUESTING HELP...please state the exact version
of osCommerce that you are using. THANKS

 
Get the latest current code (community-supported responsive 2.3.4.1BS Edge) here

 

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@@14steve14 - good post. 

 

The BS version is useable, very useable - as is shown on many many sites.

 

To be perfect it needs more work, the problem is that everyone has a different idea of what work it needs

and no-one will accept that there can be only one who decides what goes in, what does not, what is released

what is not and so on.  Everyone wants to be captain of the ship, but no one wants to take the reposnsibility.


This is a signature that appears on all my posts.  
IF YOU MAKE A POST REQUESTING HELP...please state the exact version
of osCommerce that you are using. THANKS

 
Get the latest current code (community-supported responsive 2.3.4.1BS Edge) here

 

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@@burt  I've seen that thread. Nowhere does it state that is is the roadmap for osCommerce 2.4. It has every appearance of being your private fork. It's also incomplete and requests even more changes to be added. Wake me up when it's complete.

 

I have no problem with somebody making the decision as to what needs to be done. If that's you, fine. I do have a problem with the lack of a solid plan and the complete lack of a release schedule.

 

I've seen all of this many times before. I've watched billion-dollar projects crash and burn, for exactly the reasons I've stated here. You may think it won't happen to you, but it will.

 

I've watched osCommerce slide slowly into irrelevance, with years between releases. I'm still seeing the same problems. If something doesn't change, this is going to continue until there's nobody here but the spammers.

 

@@14steve14  I agree completely.

 

Regards

Jim


See my profile for a list of my addons and ways to get support.

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The only one pushing through change is me.  It is others (mostly developers, some shopowners) who are resisting my efforts (for their own perfectly valid reasons).

 

I'm not sure how my github can be seen as private, when it has spawned so many forks of it's own - all the code is there for the taking, and any number of shops are happily using the codebase today... and instead of years between releases, it is now hours and sometimes minutes...

 

I think it would not really matter what is done or not done, there will always be voices of dissent.  It's something I need to learn not to take personally.

 

In any case, you have made yourself crystal-clear in this conversation and that's a good thing - so thanks for advice and the hosting of Dans "changing products" effort.  At some point in the future, hopefully you will kick yourself, when you realise that this was the start of something good and you did not get in at the first opportunity. 


This is a signature that appears on all my posts.  
IF YOU MAKE A POST REQUESTING HELP...please state the exact version
of osCommerce that you are using. THANKS

 
Get the latest current code (community-supported responsive 2.3.4.1BS Edge) here

 

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I have seen so many "good opportunities" that I cannot even begin to count them all. The number that actually succeeded is much smaller. The difference between the successes and the failures is mostly* what I have outlined above.

 

Regards

Jim

 

*The ones that failed for other reasons mostly involved raids by the FBI. No, seriously.


See my profile for a list of my addons and ways to get support.

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This thread is becoming very painful to follow - OSC has survived for many years due to the community spirit and contributions by the likes of @@kymation, @@burt, @@spooks, @@Jack_mcs, @@Chemo etc etc

 

Many developers have left, been kicked out or sadly died.

 

I shake my head in sadness over what seems to be happening here...... :(


Now running on a fully modded, Mobile Friendly 2.3.4 Store with the Excellent MTS installed - See my profile for the mods installed ..... So much thanks for all the help given along the way by forum members.

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I shake my head in sadness over what seems to be happening here...... :(

 

Yep, me too.  So many people wanted forward movement.  

I've wasted so many hours in the past year.  No more.


This is a signature that appears on all my posts.  
IF YOU MAKE A POST REQUESTING HELP...please state the exact version
of osCommerce that you are using. THANKS

 
Get the latest current code (community-supported responsive 2.3.4.1BS Edge) here

 

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I've wasted so many hours in the past year.  No more.

 

That wasn't the effect that I wanted. If you're quitting because of something that I said, please reconsider. Or just ignore me.

 

Regards

Jim


See my profile for a list of my addons and ways to get support.

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I for one do applaud Burt for all the work being done, I might not agree on all decisions and choices made for the new version but its great to see something being done in advancing oscommerce into the modern area.

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I agree and I think most that post in this thread would too. But the problem isn't the quality of the work, or that it is being done at all. Burt deserves a slap on the back for that effort. But if it never gets released as the official version, what difference will it make? So the question is when is never? Next month, next year? That's what bothering most, I think. At least that is my take on it.

 

I do wonder why Harold hasn't commented on this.  I would think he would, and should, have something to say about it. 

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