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burt

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@@burt I think we don't have the same point of view about what's 'core code'. Better said, we don't share the same priorities of what is an essential function and what's just a nice feature for an online shop. For me it's essential, and I think that for most shop owners is. That's all. And obviously your opinion has more weight than mine because you decide what to include and what not.

 

You consider more important to add a card acceptance box, twitter product card, login with paypal, opensearch functions or a hundred already included features than a simple order editor? Fine.

In my opinion these are far from essential even when it's allright if these modules are bundled, and a simple order editor is essential. In fact, 90% of the oscommerce code could be removed from setup package in favor of easily installable, pad for or free addons as you purpose. And the shopowner could get them made and share to the community too instead of being added by default, too, even the customer edit module.

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What you fail to understand is that your needs are not the same as the next shopowners needs.

 

Why are you arguing about nothing?  Each time you post, I'll just post back the fact that you see only your own nose.


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@@burt just because you told yesterdat you was interested on it and I didn't understand it was a rhetorical question. Now I do, I'll stop arguing right now.

 

 

@@clustersolutions please explain why you believe adding in more code would help move osCommerce forward...I would be very interested to understand other peoples viewpoint..

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I am interested, in a point of view that understands that there is a very broad ownership of shops...what 1 shopowner wants might be polar opposite of what another wants.  As someone in the middle, I cannot please both..so I expect both to please themselves.  

 

There is no point in you saying "I use X, therefore all shops must have X".  

There is no point in you trying to say "because oscommerce has X, it should have Y.

Reality is that shopowners want A B C D ... X Y Z

 

If shopowner is unhappy with what he has, he gets what is not correct coded up to his specification (and then shares it (or more likely not) with the rest of the shopowning community).

 

What is seen on a daily basis is pretty much as follows;

 

- shopowner says "hey X feature is useless, why isn't Y feature included"

- core team says "because its not coded"

- shopowner says "why the hell not, fool"

- core team says "go get it coded, and give it back"

- shopowner says "no, thats your job" or "yeah i might in 6 months"

 

and the circle starts again


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@@piernas you wont win so I would stop trying to push your requirements onto the core code. Every time someone else makes a suggestion it just pushes any new release of oscommerce further behind. The further away the general release is, the longer it will take coders to get addons made and altered. Its a vicious circle, which has been going round and round now for years and seems not to be slowing down or stopping.

 

If you want lots of features as standard have a look at the new opencart. It has everything you want and is now responsive. There is a very good active forum and lots of coders specialising in making extensions. As the code is new, it will take a while to get many of the old extensions altered, but it will happen. There is also  magneto that includes nearly everything apart from the kitchen sink. Most hosting packages will now cater for this huge bemoth of a software package. If oscommerce does not offer what you want you will find something that does as there are plenty of better feature packed shopping carts out there.

 

My argument has changed now. I now think that if oscommerce includes something, it has to work and meet today's needs for the store owner. Its not about what is best for the store owner, or indeed what the store owner wants. It just has to work and do its job correctly.


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That was not my intention, @@burt. I was just sharing with all of you what I think is a missing, basic need for a shop. Not just for my shop but for most (if not all) shops. There's a lot of things that are essential for MY shop so I installed addons or programmed code for it to do, but I can't figure a shop that never has the need of editing an order.

 

And of course there are already modules that does that (today there are several, back in 2005 there was only one if I remeber well) so it's just the feel that this is like selling a car without tyres. Of course you can buy the tyres but it makes no sense to me. Just that.

 


- shopowner says "hey X feature is useless, why isn't Y feature included"

- core team says "because its not coded"

- shopowner says "why the hell not, fool"

- core team says "go get it coded, and give it back"

- shopowner says "no, thats your job" or "yeah i might in 6 months"

 

and the circle starts again

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@@piernas you wont win so I would stop trying to push your requirements onto the core code.

 

I insist, this is not my intention. I already have a contribution installed and when I finally get bootstrap version running I'll have it adapted for sure (in fact it is, because this contribution has not been affected by any change since 2.2 apart of the install instructions). It was just feedback. I'm not asking nobody to do a job. Just ponting a flaw.

 

I'm a manufaturer and also a direct seller, and even when I don't share the point of view of the customers I'm always interested on their arguments. Many times it helps me a lot while others is unuseful, but I always listen because I think it's important for me to understand what they consider bad, good or what makes them happier.

 

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@@piernas, ok........ 1st things first.

 

By law it is illegal to edit a made order.(in most country's)

it is called FRAUD, especially if you want to use your store to fill up your tax software.

 

Now, to make a CORRECT "order editor" , you simply create a NEW order for the customer.

Then you COMBINE these 2 orders.

You give the 1st order a specific STATUS (same as you do when say delivered,processing,shipping blabla).

Your NEW order will then be the correct order.

That new order hold all the changes you made from the previous order.

So if the reason was you changed shipping, and shipping cost more:

You send the client a receipt to pay the extra fee (how you manage that is your problem)

If the shipping fee cost less, you tell that aswall to the client.

You could then give the client a refund (what must be on the order) , or you give the client a credit on his next purchase, or a coupon.(what must be told in the new order)

 

Like that you have a fraud free order editor.

So.. first order:

1

second order:

1-a or 1-1

third order (pay the fee)

1-b or 1-2

etc etc...

then you can CLOSE the order and make the packing slip.

Of course you can re-open.

 

If you do it like that, it go save you much headaches when try to edit the actual placed order.(just 1 mistake in there and your screwed).

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Now I'm sure this discusion is completely off-topic, should be in its own thread. If some admin can move it to it's own it would be nice.

 

@@wHiTeHaT, maybe it's illegal in your country what I say, on mine isn't regulated too tight for now (and I hope it won't). I never correct orders because the shop estimated wrong shipping, but it's usual to receive an email asking for adding or removing unwanted products, or correcting the shipping or billing address, or changing the shipping method... things like that and always by customer's request. This can't be ilegal nor fraud if the customer asks for it.

 

The legal document here is the VAT invoice. I send VAT invoice AFTER I receive the payment and it's ready to ship. It's legal in all EU countries I think and that way I don't need to do several corrective invoices, or several payments and/or refunds for the same order.

 

But apart of that, oscommerce doesn't offer admin tools to create a new order, add products to it or combine orders.  That's what I meant so what you purpose can't be done anyway by default.

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I've been using OSC since 2004...I guess I bet the question are we really getting there? I'm a shop owner first, so OSC is about 20% of the whole equation to me. I was implementing a Magento store three years ago and I read a reason for its existence was the developers there had thought there had got to be a better way than re-applying add-ons every times that they are deploying a new store; hence, the Magento. I launched a store last year using OSC 2.3, and I just did another OSC BS 2.3. last week, and guess what? I was reapplying the few add-ons both times just like I did 10 years ago. I guess I "felt" those Magento's founders...I read somewhere someone was concerned of OSC looking stale with its existing test products. Hey, I got news for you, its core features are stale too. I think shop owners are smart and they know what other carts offer that OSC can't right out of the box, and they are not fooled by that large number of whatever available contributions statement when they really only needed ten; hence, OSC is not popular like it once was. The BS feature if it makes its way into the core would be great, but I doubt it alone would give a shop owner the reason to chose it. To me, some of these good add-ons had got to make their way into the core as standard offering to make OSC in demand again amongst shop owners.

 

I think I was vague with "packaging add-ons into the core," but I don't think the specific is necessary for now. To me, the standard OSC install should allow a shop owner the option to "turn-on/install" features, for example, such as SEO URL, header tags, sitemap, googlefeeder and etc. right out of the box. So I imagine a shop owner that wants a bare minimum store can just simply turn all these features off without them taken up any resources. I guess the last store I launched I had spent almost 3 months on it, and I really didn't appreciate those deja vu moments with some of these add-on installations as that could had been time spent on furthering the add-ons instead. I really can't imagine these "deja vu moments" help with attracting more developers. I think for any open souce, the more developers the merrier...

 

@@burt, I guess I don't see it as adding more codes, and I see it as adding more functionality. You know, I'm a surfer, and I really don't see the benefits of 5 fins verse a tri-fin or a single fin other than it freakin' cost more. Now, just because Kelly Slater's Channel Island has it and everyone wants it so Rusty, Bing, and Spyder all are offering the five fins setup. So I guess it's also what the end users want even thought unless you are at the Kelly Slater level you are not gonna be able to tell the advantage of the 5 fins setup. Another point I have is that who knows by "adding more codes" may be is the own way to allow us to hack away freely without touching the core. I sure had tried not touching the core in my install but failed as it was impossible with all the add-ons/features that I wanted. Lastly, be it that some of these add-ons are popular and functional, but I can tell you that they may treat OOP like a procedure language, so by rolling them into the core it may be possible to actually reduce codes...just my $0.02... 

 

 

 

Not really. Even the high-demand addons are used by only a small percentage of shopowners. I prefer to keep osCommerce to the minimum code that's needed to operate a store, and have everything else as an easy-to-install module. It's not quite there yet, but we're getting there.

 

Regards

Jim

 

 

@@clustersolutions please explain why you believe adding in more code would help move osCommerce forward...I would be very interested to understand other peoples viewpoint..

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Whoa, I think I just caught the word "order editor"...my osc is connected to an ERP order editing may not be a good idea...and if you treat an order as a contract you are better off cancelling it, issue credit, and place another order again. Audit trail and potential charge back pops into my mind...this is at least in the U.S.

 

Hi @@piernas.  I agree and really don't think there is any question about the need for an order editor and that it should be a module that is easy to install.  The question is really whether it is part of the core and maintained by the osC team or a separate module or modules that are created by independent developers who sell or contribute it to the community.  To me it all comes down to resources and where you draw the line.

 

Dan

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@@clustersolutions Like you I have been using OSC for many years - I installed a shed load of functionality to my 2.2RC2a stores.

 

Then I upgraded to 2.3.4 and went through the same "pain" of re-installing the same functionality

 

Now Im playing with a 2.3.4BS set up - and once again am looking at installing the same functionality

 

Many 100's of hours installing the same things to a basic OSC set up - But necessary for me, as the things I install are essential for ME and the way I Operate my stores - they will not be essential for everyone - so I can see the arguement for a clean-core install.

 

But reading a post by @@14steve14 I had a quick look at opencart and my first impressions of their demo storefront and admin pages was wow!

 

Now I dont know anything at all about the opencart setup or software or ease of use - but there again neither will most store owners - but If I was a statrup business today and looked at both demo sites Im almost certain I would not today choose OSC, due to 1) the more modern look of opencart and 2) the fact its bristling with features.

 

Personally, I will stay with OSC, as it has worked well for me, and I will re-install functionality in whatever version Im using, but it really does need a massive makeover to keep up with the competition to attract new users especially those who want to "hit the ground running"

 

Just my thoughts on the matter.......


Now running on a fully modded, Mobile Friendly 2.3.4 Store with the Excellent MTS installed - See my profile for the mods installed ..... So much thanks for all the help given along the way by forum members.

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@@Mort-lemur

 

I agree that updating software like this is a real pain in the a$$. That's why I like what @@burt is trying to do by getting coders to code addons so that no core code changes are needed. You could then update the core files as required without having the need to reinstall all the functionality that your store needs. Whether it will ever work and be released is another matter, but if it does we shop owners have to hope that it is fully supported by the coders and developers. All i will say is that having it simple to install mods may make the core code files too complicated, which means we may be bloating the code unnecessarily, which is what he is trying to avoid by missing out functionality.

 

My daughter loves Opencart as that is what she is used to. It came with everything she needed apart from a few small extensions that were required. They were easy to install by using what they call vqmods. I don't know what it is or what it does but it made installing extensions a simple 5 minute job. She is now looking at updating to the latest version, so I will be able to find out just how hard it is.


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What @@14steve14 proposes is exactly how I envisage things to be;  core code that allows developers to create addons with minimal (or better, no) core code changes.  This allows the shopowner to go;  download, unzip, ftp, into admin, click click, installed, cooooollllllllllllll.  At some point, when developers get on the ball, it will be exactly as the paypal app works...no need to download, unzip, ftp - just grab straight from the osCommerce server).  

 

Then when core team releases an update eg 2.3.956; simple matter of downloading, overwriting (or pressing the update button in your admin area ;)) - as none of your addons would have touched the core files...

 

What will not happen is "loading" osc with a bunch of addons, well at least not from the core team - that I can absolutely guarantee.  Typical example in this very thread where piernas is advocating some type of order editor whereas whitehat and clustersolutions have other ideas.  It is not possible to please all shopowners so I dont bother. 

 

My point is;  

- if we leave the core as clean as possible and introduce more content modules, hooks and so on) it makes it very very easy for shopowners to do exactly as they please with regards to adding extra features.


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@@14steve14 @@burt I also agree with what is being done with OSC BUT.....

 

Put on the hat of someone who is looking for a new shop today, someone who has no idea about websites, they search what is available, and they need in their setup (as an example) a Points and rewards system, or a gift voucher system

 

1) They look at osc - see the dated appearance of the demo site - if they are lucky they may find the link to the BS version - still dated appearance out of the box, they then ask on the forum about the functionality they need - they are told in pretty blunt terms to post a request in the commercial help section, pay for its devevelopment then donate it back.

 

2) They look at opencart - they see that it looks modern, is responsive (on their demo site) and they see that the features they need are already there

 

Which will they choose?

 

Maybe we should talk about "Functionality" rather than "add-ons"?


Now running on a fully modded, Mobile Friendly 2.3.4 Store with the Excellent MTS installed - See my profile for the mods installed ..... So much thanks for all the help given along the way by forum members.

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they then ask on the forum about the functionality they need [...]

 

What I think should be in this case is

 

they are told in pretty blunt terms to post a request in the commercial help section, pay for its devevelopment then donate it back.

 
They go to the add ons section, get a zip, upload it to their store (why not via admin), click a couple of buttons and that's it

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It does not matter which they choose.  osCommerce is not right for everyone.

 

If a shopowner is scared of hard work in setting up their site then osCommerce is not correct for them => they pop off to Magento or any other cart they like the look of and soon come to realise that instead of hard work, they have to start spending.  The hosting cost alone on Magento, well, you get the idea...

 

 

To re-iterate; it is not possible to please everyone, we are not trying to, we are not going to.  


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The only thing that worries me is that the core code will be clean, but there will be no addons available, which will make oscommerce useless and once again drifting behind its competitors.

 

Can someone explain to me why opencart, magneto, prestashop and all the others have functionality included, but oscommerce doesn't want it, and thinks that no one that uses oscommerce wants it either, without the hassle of finding and installing something that others include for free. I agree with @@Mort-lemur in that oscommerce needs basic functionality that store owners have come to expect, otherwise it will never catch the competition let alone overtake it. I personally cannot see that including for example an order editor will create any more work once its coded. It wont need to changed, or modified in the core code, but will give developers a chance to amend and improve a standard module, thus creating better features for users if they want it. The same applies to a cross sell module. If a shop owner is not using one than maybe they should be. Ecommerce software is all about sales and if there is something that will help, then it should be included and used. Again once a basic module is coded it can be left alone, and even improved if a coder wants to. Basic features which are included can always be improved easier than a complete new module that needs to be created. The team of coders in charge of the core code then ensure that the core code is left clean and tidy and untouched by those that do not really know what they are doing. You only have to look at the current addons area where more than likely you will spend ages trying to install stuff that is there that does not work, or is poorly coded. Having these types of things in the core code will prevent this from happening and will enhance the users perception of oscommerce.

 

Where this this that opencart users have to start paying once they have it installed comes from I have no idea.. They do not. There are hundreds of free extensions available all which are rated and vetted by those that install them. The developers of opencart spent a long time working on functionality and have tried to please most users. Whilst they cant please everyone, they can at least put in the effort to please many. Oscommerce is going the same way as I see many posts on these forums about posting for paid help then releasing it as an addon. is that not the same as opencart. I do remeber a thread on here somewhere that that is the way that oacommerce addons area would be going, so whats the difference.

 

There are many ecommerce forums about today where people ask questions about the best ecommerce software. Have a look for them and let me know why not one of those forums recommend oscommrce. Many say to avoid it as its outdated, poorly coded and lacking features. If oscommerce is to overcome this stigma, then it has to do something which pleases the store owners that it is intended to be used by, not to produce great looking code that a shopper never sees. It has to be better than the rest, which is what I think we all agree on. What we differ on is what will make it the best.


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See it as, getting a present you never wanted.

 

osCommerce try to avoid that.

 

Same as if not all add-ons fits to each shop owner (when would build into the core).

Each e-commerce system must be seen the same way.

At the end each shop is unique, can you tell that from the others?

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post a request in the commercial help section, pay for its devevelopment then donate it back.

If a new or old user asks for something that does not exist, or exists but is broken, and they have no clue how to fix it, how on earth will it suddenly become coded (or fixed) unless they do something about it ?  Developers (unfortunately) don't live in a land of milk and honey where they can down tools and do this that and the other for no recompense.

 

Some developers are giving time up to help move osCommerce forward, some give nothing.

Some give less than nothing by just haunting the commercial forum and private messages.

 

Asking for a quote to have something coded does not mean that they have to go ahead.

osCommerce (and its users, both shopowners and developers) needs to move away from this idea that everything must be free.


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Taking your point of view to the limit, why responsive? Not all people uses mobile devices and it makes the core code more complex. It could be an add-on you can download and install in one click :D

 

Now seriously, your approach is very limited to the programmer's point of view IMHO.

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Taking your point of view to the limit, why responsive? Not all people uses mobile devices and it makes the core code more complex. It could be an add-on you can download and install in one click :D

 

Now seriously, your approach is very limited to the programmer's point of view IMHO.

 

And that's why I like to call it 2.3.4 BS.  Where the BS in this case does not stand for BootStrap.  ;)


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Quite a lively debate going on here.....

 

When designers dont listen to users : http://www.baddesigns.com/examples.html

 

This debate is timeless and has happened many times before - and will rear its head again in the future Im sure......and while it keeps going on OSC is being left behind by other carts where perhaps (and only perhaps) the users wishes are taken into account

 

It would be interesting to get the opinion of the "customers" of OSC - ie users like myself, on what they think are the 10 most important things they need their shop to do.


Now running on a fully modded, Mobile Friendly 2.3.4 Store with the Excellent MTS installed - See my profile for the mods installed ..... So much thanks for all the help given along the way by forum members.

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OK, let's do just that.  NOT HERE, so that people don't jump on the same tired old bandwagon as each other.

 

List your 10 things...

If it exists:  link to the addon.

If it does not exist:  state if you are willing to take action to get it coded to required standard if it is not already of required standard.

 

Send that list to my PM inbox by Friday.

I will collate them all, remove the senders name and make a new thread, and then it can be discussed in more depth.


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