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burt

Addons Creation and Uploading -discussion-

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Sorry, for some reason I could not edit the post above :blink:

 


I think that we transfer to much of the responsibility - to install or not some addon - to the end user. This here, the oscommerce addon area - is not a secret/closed developer area. It is a open place where people - shop owners - are coming in to get additional solutions for their store
 
Do they have to be experts in php coding? Do they have to know what "drop table" mean? How much responsibility do the users have and what about osCommerce responsibility to check what is offered on its website? The decision about what to do with the addon area depend on how we answer this question


I think this is the philosopy of open source: You can do what you want with the code, but you are yourself responsible for all what you do.
Every shopowner may decide what he/she want: A shopsystem easy to install out of the box - then you may choose a commercial solution you have to pay for. Or an open source system like oscommerce - in its current form only the framework of a shop - which is free of charge but where you have to invest some time and effort to gather information and to familiarize yourself with the basics of such a system. There is no free lunch in life! To put it bluntly, I hate this attitude of some people who get such a free shop system and think that if they need something additional, they would all be served on a silver platter!
End users do not have to be php experts but they have to be ready to learn and they must willing to get involved - for their own thing!
I myself am not a developer or coder and when I set up my first shop system, I had no more idea about php, mysql, JS etc. as of - lets say: the Constitution of the Inner Mongolia. But one can learn what is needed.
 
All this does not mean that improvements to the addon area would not be worth the effort. But when I look at the course of the discussion here, it seems to come down to the implementation of a bureaucratic monster that I am afraid that it leaves an addon area, as fertile as the Gobi Desert.
 
J.J.

Edited by De Dokta

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When a system is put in place for "automatic" installation and any new add-on has to follow a certain coding standard, this will be a big plus for a shop owner.

 

BUT this will also mean that it will be kinda like Magneto, Opencart and Presta Shop, where in the end close to all useful add-ons will be commercial ones and most of the free ones will not be updated or just "lite" versions.   

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@@wHiTeHaT

Are you talking about future object oriented osCommerce versions ?

 

e.g. I have a function to display product details and another to display a whole bunch of products into a UI widget

implementing this in current 2.3.4  requires changes to catalog/xyz and catalog/includes/modules/... files,

 

do you consider this core changes ?


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I do not use the responsive bootstrap version since i coded my responsive version earlier, but i have bought every 28d of code package to support burts effort and keep this forum alive (albeit more like on life support).

So if you are still here ? What are you waiting for ?!

 

Find the most frequent unique errors to fix:

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@@bruyndoncx

 

I think what whitehat means is any file that needs to be altered no matter which one is a core change. But creating add-ons that use a so called content modules system or hook system like recently the header tags modules where people just click the install module button and that will add a new feature without ever touching any core files is not considered a core file change. osC 2.3.4 and the Bootstrap version community build introduced such feature but this is still not standard osC and cannot be used for everything yet. Some add-ons require major code changes to the core like SEO add-ons or Master/Slave or Option Types these add-ons will be very challenging.

 

Like George said we have to do something NOW! and a reviews system or status system like whitehat mentioned would be a good step forward and it shouldn't be that difficult to do, i guess

We have already some sort of verified system in the add-ons section, look at haralds payment modules (PayPal) just extend that to other add-ons.

 

And a candy for my eyes would be a Bootstrapped version of the Add-ons section. *wish*

Edited by Tsimi

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Exactly, and it is a good thing for the people who Code add-ons for their living.

 

 

My point is that a lot of the users (shop owners) of oscommerce are used to free add-ons and support, and they expect that to continue with the added benefit of easy installs.

 

For those such a new system would come with a rude awakening to the hash realities of the business world.

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For those such a new system would come with a rude awakening to the hash realities of the business world.

 

This is what an awful lot of shopowners require.  Anyone with half a business brain knows that it takes cash (and usually a lot of it) to set up a business.

 

From here, the rest of the post is aimed at no-one in particular..

 

I would fully expect that a correctly written addon would not be added to the addons area as a free of charge download.  In fact, I would advise that all developers start to code to the expected parameters from this point forward and license their work BSD, not GPL.

 

The time of free as in free speech is over.  Do these shopowners who take and take and take and take, give away their products for free?  Of course not - so why shouhld they expect developers to give away their product?

 

I want to move osCommerce away from it's historical position and into a new world of professionalism for the end user.  In return I expect the end user to be professional and business-like.  Any developer or shopowner who does not subscribe to moving osCommerce forward is very welcome to leave.

Edited by burt

This is a signature that appears on all my posts.  
IF YOU MAKE A POST REQUESTING HELP...please state the exact version
of osCommerce that you are using. THANKS

 
Get the latest current code (community-supported responsive 2.3.4.1BS Edge) here

 

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@@wHiTeHaT

 

I agree with you that such an optional status system as you propose would be a helpful orientation. But I'm in doubt that the Team Members really can afford to install and test at least the addons which have one or more votes from users. Who should also do that?

And again: The average user does not use the rating system in the forum (a little more in the english, a little less in the german forum), so I see no reason to assume that this would be different for a rating system in the addon area.

 

That no installation guide is needed is currently probably still in the future. If the architecture of osc in the future is completely modular - as at the moment some small areas such as login or checkout success - it should be possible, in fact, to build addons that do not change the core files. But this is (perhaps) the future. Here and now, very few addons do not require such changes. And as long as this is so, addons without installation instructions are about as useful as toothache - basta!

 

J.J.

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I want to move osCommerce away from it's historical position and into a new world of professionalism for the end user.  In return I expect the end user to be professional and business-like.  Any developer or shopowner who does not subscribe to moving osCommerce forward is very welcome to leave.

 

What will osCommerce have to offer under that business model? Will you spend millions to advertise it, like Magento does? Will it have features that no other cart has, or addons that no other cart has? I suspect the answer to all of these questions is no. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

The main selling point for osCommerce today is the vast number of addons that are freely available. If that is gone, I see no reason to stay here. I will certainly not be releasing any code under the BSD license.

 

Regards

Jim


See my profile for a list of my addons and ways to get support.

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Oh dear, this will probably get me banned, or at least my post will be removed (again!) but I really dont like the way the forum is going at the moment for the following reasons:

 

I have used OSC for many years (both as Mort-lemur and previously as another name) and like many I fall into a category that is not black and white - Im certainly not a developer, but Im not a simple shop owner either, one of the reasons I like OSC is that it gives me something to play with, I (most of the time) enjoy installing modifications and tweeking them so they work the way I personally want them to work and knowing that there are very kind people in this COMMUNITY that are prepared to help out and offer advice and assistance when its needed. In my personal view a one-click-install will remove the character from OSC and kill the community dead in its tracks.

 

After all OSC by its very name is OPEN SOURCE and it seems to be being driven away from this into a commercial venture where a handful of developers will provide paid for solutions and support for users of 2.4

 

Gone will be some of the great (in my opinion) add-ons such as option types, order editors / makers etc etc as they will not be produced unless someone pays a developer to code them so they will just fade away, leaving OSC as a bare boned system with a few simple mods (and some payed for mods at an unknown cost)

 

I agree that there should be a rating system for current mods, and that should not be too difficult to achieve, but to have all new mods vetted by a developer would certainly slow the system to a standstil and prevent non developers in the COMMUNITY having a go at publishing their mod.

 

Its been stated that starting a business carries a large cost well thats simply not true these days, I started one of mine with £50 and it now has almost a six figure turnover (unfortunately not 6 figure profit) - If I had needed to spend 100's or 1000's to get my business off the ground it simply would not have happened.

 

Please remember that this is a COMMUNITY where everyones views should be taken into account not just the views of the ones with most to gain by commercialising OSC and its add-ons, and rigoroulsy policing what is said in the forum by removing posts that the mods to not agree with.

 

Ill get my coat............


Now running on a fully modded, Mobile Friendly 2.3.4 Store with the Excellent MTS installed - See my profile for the mods installed ..... So much thanks for all the help given along the way by forum members.

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The only posts that ever get hidden are spam and trolls.  As your last couple of posts were simple trolls they got removed.  

 

Who benefits from correctly coded addons:

 

1. end user

a. ease of installation

b. ease of updating core code when a new version comes out

 

2.  addon developer

a. less code to maintain

b. less support to have to give

 

3.  core coders

a. no core code touched

b. no bogus bug reports

 

Now, who does not benefit:

 

1.  end users

a. if they feel that a developers product is worth less than the developer is charging for it.

bear in mind that a developer can still say his code is GPL and up it to the addons area exactly as is done now, no one is going to be stopping him/her, it simply means that a well coded addon would receive more "publicity" than a poor coded one.  Also near in mind that the cost for the developers product could be zero.

 

2.  developers

a. "press to install" stops shopowners from seeking help from developers

b.  addons will be coded a different way using multiple modules - harder to code

understandably, some developers are resistant to upcoming changes

 

-----------

 

Q; who are the ones with most to gain from addons being coded the "new way" ?

A: shopowners

 

Q: who are the ones with most to lose from addons being coded the "new way" ?

those developers who rely on shopowners needing addons installed manually

 

-----------

 

Summary

 

Addons are expected to be coded in the new way and to a standard that wont break your shop.  Just over the weekend, I heard about an addon that dropped a required table when the SQL was run, I had to come into the forum on a weekend to clean up the posts...  

 

Shopowners can expect new addons coded in the new way, uploaded 'GPL' or uploaded 'BSD'.  They want cheap and cheerful, they can have it.  They want coded gracefully and with direct support from developer, they can have it.  They want to build their own, they can have it.   

 

If shopowners think that even 10% of the code developers write is added to the addons area at the moment, then they don't understand how a developer works.  If shopowners think the top end developers use addons to make money then they are sadly mistaken. 

 

Also

 

Please look back to the conversation and re-read.  The idea of an addons vetting process was brought up by a top end developer (George of MTS @@multimixer) who volunteered to look into it and 1 other community member also volunteered @@PupStar - at no point would osCommerce Team be involved in that.  Addons would be uploaded by the community and vetted by the community.

Edited by burt

This is a signature that appears on all my posts.  
IF YOU MAKE A POST REQUESTING HELP...please state the exact version
of osCommerce that you are using. THANKS

 
Get the latest current code (community-supported responsive 2.3.4.1BS Edge) here

 

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Just over the weekend, I heard about an addon that dropped a required table when the SQL was run, and I see the developer of that addon liking posts in this conversation that say "everything should stay as is, no changes needed".

 

Burt

 

I have checked back through the thread and the developer of the add-on that dropped the zones table has not contributed to this thread or liked any posts.

 

Cheers

 

G


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My mistake.  

Whats the point of your post?


This is a signature that appears on all my posts.  
IF YOU MAKE A POST REQUESTING HELP...please state the exact version
of osCommerce that you are using. THANKS

 
Get the latest current code (community-supported responsive 2.3.4.1BS Edge) here

 

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At all

 

...it seems like this topic is becoming a developer vs shop owner kinda argument thing. GPL vs BSD and so on...

please let's stay on topic and find a current more realistic solution for the add-ons area.

George and PupStar i think volunteered to take a look at some add-ons and that should allow us to give some sort of rating system going.

Or as whitehat mentioned statuses that visually show on what level the add-on currently is.

We could start to checkout already existing add-ons, the popular ones at least and give them some sort of rating/status that would be a great start.

It also makes no sense to have add-ons started in 2006 showing the whole history tree just take the last 3-5 current version updates and the rest archive or show only on click. a button perhaps "show archived version" or something like that.

The discussion regarding dev vs shop owner can/should be postponed and opened again once osC 2.4 (maybe with hooks) will be released.

 

just my 2 cents here.

Edited by Tsimi

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we just need an integration with youtube, see the contribution in action and have the youtube thumbsup - thumbsdown - problem solved :D


KEEP CALM AND CARRY ON

I do not use the responsive bootstrap version since i coded my responsive version earlier, but i have bought every 28d of code package to support burts effort and keep this forum alive (albeit more like on life support).

So if you are still here ? What are you waiting for ?!

 

Find the most frequent unique errors to fix:

grep "PHP" php_error_log.txt | sed "s/^.* PHP/PHP/g" |grep "line" |sort | uniq -c | sort -r > counterrors.txt

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Maybe, however, it is more "fear" of the unknown. Or ever more specifically fear of a "pay as you go" type addon area...

 

Not the fear of the unknown. But some discussion contributions sounded to me as if some professional developers wanted to make the addon area to their exclusive playing field.

 

 
There is no question at all that professional developers for a decent work may require also a decent wage.
 
Ok, then give them their own section within the addon area where they can present and offer their work.
That is good for the end users which then can find all commercial and non-commercial addons on one site.
That is good for professional developers, because they and their offers can be found by the end users faster and easier.
And as long as the rest of the addon area for all others who want to contribute something, is left open, even the opportunity developers will have no problem with it.
 
And even though I am skeptical that a rating system brings a lot, try it! Implement it and see what happens. 
But as well the idea of wHiTeHaT sounds, to let addons test and approve by a team member - the community should not also impose the core team this task...........

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