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Harald Ponce de Leon

Forum Rules Update (10th May, 2013)

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Hi All..

 

The forum rules have been updated to reflect recent events and to allow us to better handle legal situations should they happen to occur again in the future. Here is the abstract that has been added to the rules:

 

B. Legal Disputes
  1. Legal disputes brought against osCommerce will involve the suspension of the accounts involved to protect the parties involved.
  2. Legal disputes between users in the community may involve the suspension of the accounts involved to protect the parties involved as well as the community in whole.

Disputes that have been filed and documented with a legal entity can be forwarded to legal@oscommerce.com. Please note that osCommerce is not in a position to mediate legal disputes between users but will act accordingly in the best interest of the community to protect its members.


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@@Harald Ponce de Leon

 

Just to clarify, would an account suspension be initiated with a complaint ? With the presentation to legals@oscommerce.com with a legal notice from a governing law enforcement agency or with a copy of the judgement from a residing court ? Would both the complaining party and the party being complained about receive suspensions ?

 

 

 

Chris


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@@Harald Ponce de Leon

 

Since the other thread concerning this matter has been conveniently locked, I am responding here.

 

 

Harald,

 

I did refund his money after I was contacted by PayPal. NOT his credit card company.

 

If you are going to post things, you should ensure you have all of the information. Posting ONLY those things that make me look bad or defaming me, will only result in people (those who have contacted me about this matter) knowing that you are posting half truths and taking sides in matters that do not concern YOU or the osCommerce community.

 

Furthermore, since a very low percentage of my business comes from this forum, your warning post does nothing to hurt me or my business. However, I continue to post on this forum to HELP those individuals who are learning and need good advice and information about their osCommerce store. I have a rating of almost 900 and have submitted more than 12,500 posts in just 6 years I feel my time spent here is appreciated by the members.

 

It is just a very few that have felt they have an issue with my services and have used this forum to 'strong-arm' a refund for work already completed. My policy has, and always will be. If the work has begun, there is no refund. My conditions of use policies are MUST ACCEPT when making payments and are available on ALL of my websites. I hide nothing.

 

This forum however, see's fit to 'modify' its policies at will. Enforcing them only when it's beneficial to the moderator or the owner and censors out what they don't want the whole forum to see.

 

The above is just my opinion on the subject.

 

Chris


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Hi Chris..

 

Even though we've been working with the community for over 13 years, the community evolves and new issues arise which we need to adapt to. It is not a black and white environment as you make out to be as every issue we need to address has different variables.

 

The best example is yourself - had we received complaints of a new community member performing fraudulent activites we would have immediately suspended the account and investigated further. As you are an active community member we decided to investigate first before performing an action.

 

It would be easy to say in a black and white environment that after 2, 4, 6, or 10 complaints of you performing fraudulent activity that your account should have been suspended to protect our members in the community. As you can see we take both sides of the issue seriously.

 

To be honest, despite being an active community member, the next complaint we receive about you will more than likely lead to your account being suspended while the issue is investigated further. We've experienced how your customer service is so if this warning improves your service and no further complaints are received, then it's a win for everyone involved.


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Sounds like a great idea Harald.

 

Suspension should be done, but each case should be taken / judged on it's own merits as I know for a fact some people out there complain just to complain and hope that this will get them money in return even if the work was done etc.

 

These are some developers even I have heard of from here that offer poor service, development work etc, Many people complaining on the work done or not done from some called developers found around here through conversations with them looking to hire someone else.

 

With opening the forums to offering more services for hire, also means more responsibility to ensure people who have been complained against for fraud and proven to be true (or just too many complaints) should have their accounts locked.

 

And while a court or charge is nice to see Harald, many of times, that rout is just too expensive and people just take the loss and move onward.

 

Just my thoughts though.....

 

cheers


Peter McGrath

-----------------------------

See my Profile (click here) for more information and to contact me for professional osCommerce support that includes SEO development, custom development and security implementation

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@@Harald Ponce de Leon.

 

Hi,

 

1 : Legal disputes brought against osCommerce will involve the suspension of the accounts involved to protect the parties involved.

 

Is this really necessary in an open source environment do not misunderstand me if this needs to be done to protect the platform and it's integrity then OK DO IT.

I just thought the open source aspect had protection within itself and feel a bit disturbed.

 

Legal disputes between users in the community may involve the suspension of the accounts involved to protect the parties involved as well as the community in whole.

 

It is not a black and white environment as you make out to be as every issue we need to address has different variables.

 

Seems to me maybe this is a bit of overkill !!

 

It has been brought about by a situation involving to the best of my knowledge mainly 1 x member who

 

or better said this situation has allowed us to focus on a problem


To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.

 

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Hi all ,

Sorry for the above post can not finish so here is my full post

 

@@Harald Ponce de Leon.

 

Hi,

 

1 : Legal disputes brought against osCommerce will involve the suspension of the accounts involved to protect the parties involved.

 

Is this really necessary in an open source environment do not misunderstand me if this needs to be done to protect the platform and it's integrity then OK DO IT.

 

I just thought the open source aspect had protection within itself and feel a bit disturbed.

 

2: Legal disputes between users in the community may involve the suspension of the accounts involved to protect the parties involved as well as the community in whole.

 

It is not a black and white environment as you make out to be as every issue we need to address has different variables.

 

Seems to me maybe this is a bit of overkill !!

 

It has been brought about by a situation involving to the best of my knowledge mainly 1 x member who has had a few negative feedbacks.

 

Please note I am totally impartial / unparteiisch in this matter

 

Better said and seeing this positively this situation has allowed us to focus on a problem which will possibly /probably need a better answer than....

 

may involve the suspension of the accounts !!!

 

Not sure but is this not opening the pandoras box in the future development.

 

Think it really is time to get some sort of rating / review system going .

 

Personal note : I do not think a member with so many positives and recently a few negatives should be banned forever there are many reasons that we do not know that could influence this so again a slap on the hand and a few minus points should be sufficient

 

but where is the possibility to give minus points except on the open forum so where is the problem

 

I guess our forum

 

PS: free speach for everyone hahe hahe

 

Regards

 

John


To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.

 

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Hi John..

 

Is this really necessary in an open source environment do not misunderstand me if this needs to be done to protect the platform and it's integrity then OK DO IT.

 

I just thought the open source aspect had protection within itself and feel a bit disturbed.

 

We received threats of legal action so that amendment protects us, the osCommerce team, not our software, osCommerce Online Merchant, which is already protected under Open Source licenses.

 

It has been brought about by a situation involving to the best of my knowledge mainly 1 x member who has had a few negative feedbacks.

 

Please note I am totally impartial / unparteiisch in this matter

 

Better said and seeing this positively this situation has allowed us to focus on a problem which will possibly /probably need a better answer than....

 

may involve the suspension of the accounts !!!

 

Not sure but is this not opening the pandoras box in the future development.

 

Again, not each issue brought to our attention is a black and white issue. This is why "may" is used and not "will".

 

Although we have added the rule amendment due to one person, other community members also voiced their concern of how the issue was being dealt with. Although no "forum rules" would have been broken, the amendment allows us to react appropriately to the situation.

 

Personal note : I do not think a member with so many positives and recently a few negatives should be banned forever there are many reasons that we do not know that could influence this so again a slap on the hand and a few minus points should be sufficient

 

By that, how many times would a slap on the hand be given before more drastic action is performed? 2, 4, 6, 10? By that you would have the following table:

 

0-100 points -> 1 slap on the hand

101-500 points -> 2 slaps on the hand

501-1000 points -> 3 slaps on the hand

 

It doesn't work like that though.


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I don't think that the majority of osCommerce users and forum members are affected by the new rules

 

How many of store members felt the need to complain about a developer, services offered and payment issues? Not really many I would say

 

How many developers, or let's say people who offer commercial services and get a part of their business through the forum, received complains received complains about their services? Even less

 

I think that the new forum rules are good so they can used if ever necessary.

 

It's good also that they are in such a "vague" form with no point systems and such, I trust the forum moderators will use them with caution researching each case carefully

 

Edit

 

Lol, reading about the slaps point system, are there any bonus slaps? Eg, get 3 slaps and 2 more for free :)

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@@Harald Ponce de Leon

 

Did the forum rules also change regarding the content allowed in Signatures ? I just checked them again, and didn't see any mention of the changes to Signature links to member profiles.

 

SOMEONE (Mark E) has deleted my signature contents. My signature has had the same content in it for over a year so I don't understand why it would now be deleted.

 

 

Please offer an explanation so everyone understands the exact changes to the forum rules, even the ones that aren't posted for the public to read and those that M 'bends' on a regular basis.

 

 

 

Chris


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@@Harald Ponce de Leon

 

100% Positive. I just edited it to add ONE line, but if you check the log, you will see Mark has been on my profile daily for the past 4 days. His 'hate' for me has become out of control. This is not the first time he has attacked me personally.

 

 

Chris


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Hi Chris..

 

I investigated further and see that we did indeed clear your signature on the basis that it was advertising commercial products. This is defined in section 1.2 in the forum rules.


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@@Harald Ponce de Leon

 

100% Positive. I just edited it to add ONE line, but if you check the log, you will see Mark has been on my profile daily for the past 4 days. His 'hate' for me has become out of control. This is not the first time he has attacked me personally.

 

I can confirm that your profile was edited due to a violation of the forum rules


Mark Evans

osCommerce Monkey & Lead Guitarist for "Sparky + the Monkeys" (Album on sale in all good record shops)

 

---------------------------------------

Software is like sex: It's better when it's free. (Linus Torvalds)

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Chris's signature :

See my Profile (click here) for more information and to contact me for professional osCommerce support that includes custom templates, add ons as well as cart leasing and support plans.

 

 

Hi Chris..

 

I investigated further and see that we did indeed clear your signature on the basis that it was advertising commercial products. This is defined in section 1.2 in the forum rules.

 

 

Harald, in respect to people who pay to support osCommerce and do support it in many ways, I still feel that signature is an advertizement for commercial services. By him doing so and not paying dilutes the people who do pay and support osC in many ways ability to continue to support the project when they have to compete with people who put things like this in there signatures.

 

And while I gain some work from here, I can not say I do not get any, but that is not the point though, I am sure many people who do support osC do so not only for monetary incentives, but that they believe in both you, the team, osC and open source in general.

 

I have posted before how I believe that Chris is in violation of the GPL and to date nothing has been done about this issue, which I feel is not fair to other either.

 

For example his auction module :

 

Core Code and MOST add ons are Released under General Public License (GPL), however the AUCTION MODULE is Copy Writed by Dunweb Designs. The is a single site license so this cart can NOT be duplicated or re-distributed.

 

DO NOT PURCHASE THIS AUCTION CART IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THIS LICENSE.

Now I am pretty sure after developing for over a decade that it would be difficult to produce a module that does not interact with core osCommerce logic thus putting it into the GPL domain of licensing, especially given he uses the following :

 

osCommerce v2.3.3 Auction Cart featuring:

  • Admin controlled Store Logo
  • CKeditor (WYSIWYG)
  • Information Pages Controlled from Admin
  • Custom Auctions Module (Copy Writed)
  • Header Tags SEO
  • SEO URL's Pro

And for him to continue along this avenue without any consequences is really an affront to all open source developers who put time effort and resources towards the betterment of all members of this community.

 

Just my opinion.

 

cheers


Peter McGrath

-----------------------------

See my Profile (click here) for more information and to contact me for professional osCommerce support that includes SEO development, custom development and security implementation

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I have seen advertising of commercial products into the addons section, posted by a developer that doesn't pay for any kind of sponsorship plan......I'd like to know if that is allowed or if it's violating forum rules?


~ Don't mistake my kindness for weakness ~

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Hi Peter..

 

Harald, in respect to people who pay to support osCommerce and do support it in many ways, I still feel that signature is an advertizement for commercial services. By him doing so and not paying dilutes the people who do pay and support osC in many ways ability to continue to support the project when they have to compete with people who put things like this in there signatures.

 

For a while we have relaxed ourselves a little regarding profile signatures and mainly addressed the cases that were brought to our attention via reported profiles. No doubt some have pushed themselves further into the "grey area" to see where the limit is. The best thing to do is to report the profile in question via the Report This Member link on the members profile page or the Report link of a posting the member made and the profile will be reviewed.

 

This will also be brought to the teams attention to help us address similar issues in a consistent manner.

 

I have posted before how I believe that Chris is in violation of the GPL and to date nothing has been done about this issue, which I feel is not fair to other either.

 

...

 

Now I am pretty sure after developing for over a decade that it would be difficult to produce a module that does not interact with core osCommerce logic thus putting it into the GPL domain of licensing, especially given he uses the following :

...

 

And for him to continue along this avenue without any consequences is really an affront to all open source developers who put time effort and resources towards the betterment of all members of this community.

 

I don't have the source code of his add-ons but we do have correspondence of him stating that the GPL license and the copyrights of developers are not being violated. This correspondence will obviously go against him if violations are indeed occurring and found.

 

Kind regards,


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While we at it, is there some way we can acknowledge/support "paid" service/product of supporting members? for partners at the least anyway....

 

I've purchased instructional material and code packages that are great and supported excellently. I am a do-it-yourselfer and I like to do as much as I can myself, it's nice to get some special insights that are best obtained commercially now and then. My point being as a supporting member I'd like to be able to recommend or review such products so that others may benefit.

 

This is not to promote one member over the other but simply to say, hey here's a great service/product to anyone who may be interested.

 

Maybe a special forum for such?


I am not a professional webmaster or PHP coder by background or training but I will try to help as best I can.

I remember what it was like when I first started with osC. It can be overwhelming.

However, I strongly recommend considering hiring a professional for extensive site modifications, site cleaning, etc.

There are several good pros here on osCommerce. Look around, you'll figure out who they are.

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Hi Isa..

 

I have seen advertising of commercial products into the addons section, posted by a developer that doesn't pay for any kind of sponsorship plan......I'd like to know if that is allowed or if it's violating forum rules?

 

Please bring the Add-Ons to our attention and we will look into it.

 

This also has to be addressed on a case-by-case basis as when Add-Ons for one commercial service are allowed (eg, payment modules), Add-Ons for other similar services must also be allowed. The important issue is that the source code for v2.x Add-Ons must be GPL or compatible license. If the Add-On is just a text file pointing to a website, then no - that is not allowed.

 

Kind regards,


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Hi Steve..

 

While we at it, is there some way we can acknowledge/support "paid" service/product of supporting members? for partners at the least anyway....

 

We're actually working on that now .. :)

 

Kind regards,


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I don't have the source code of his add-ons but we do have correspondence of him stating that the GPL license and the copyrights of developers are not being violated. This correspondence will obviously go against him if violations are indeed occurring and found.

So if anyone writes that they are not contravening the GPL all is ok?

 

 

if his auction module uses the following :

  • Admin controlled Store Logo
  • CKeditor (WYSIWYG)
  • Information Pages Controlled from Admin
  • Custom Auctions Module (Copy Writed)
  • Header Tags SEO
  • SEO URL's Pro

lets break it down as he is saying this entire work can not be transferred (which also means that the cart isself can not be copied again, an issue with the GPL)

 

Admin controlled Store Logo -- standard osC logic, is this used to move the store logo to the auction service?

 

CKeditor (WYSIWYG) -- standard GPL released editor, (it may use the BSD licence)

 

Information Pages Controlled from Admin -- another module developed and using all of the standard osC logic.

 

Custom Auctions Module (Copy Writed) -- his custom module, now, here he states it is a module, which in osC is generally managed by the osC code. and unless it is totally stand a lone in its logic must maintain the GPL as well from the GPL license creep....

 

Header Tags SEO -- another standard module written years ago by Linda McGrath now involved with the Zen project (last I looked)

 

SEO URL's Pro -- Again another GPL contribution.

 

 

I find it very difficult to believe this is the case, i went there before and he had many such things in place for other so called "his license" contributions.

 

Are you proposing some one buy it and review it and see if there are really GPL issues involved rather then just taking his word for it (especially given some of the controversy surrounding this individual).

 

I am sure I am not the only developer who feels this way on the subject.

 

cheers


Peter McGrath

-----------------------------

See my Profile (click here) for more information and to contact me for professional osCommerce support that includes SEO development, custom development and security implementation

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So if anyone writes that they are not contravening the GPL all is ok?

 

If we have confirmation and assurance that no violations are occurring and we have no reports that prove otherwise, yes - that is enough. This correspondence will obviously help us with legal aid when a reported violation has been confirmed.

 

I don't know how he has coded his Add-Ons however whoever has received his complete solutions can redistribute the GPL parts without concern. If his Auction Add-On has been coded in a way that does not use GPL code, he is free to choose the licensing and terms for his work which his customers must abide by.


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@@Harald Ponce de Leon

 

Hi Isa..

 

 

 

Please bring the Add-Ons to our attention and we will look into it.

 

This also has to be addressed on a case-by-case basis as when Add-Ons for one commercial service are allowed (eg, payment modules), Add-Ons for other similar services must also be allowed. The important issue is that the source code for v2.x Add-Ons must be GPL or compatible license. If the Add-On is just a text file pointing to a website, then no - that is not allowed.

 

Kind regards,

 

Hi Harald

 

I see no way of reporting and addon so I'll post it here. (also see attached thumb)

http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/8781

 

It's the "If you would like it installed for you, it can be ordered from.....site in question" that perplexes me.

 

Forum rules 1.2 state:

Commercial postings and advertisements are not allowed. If you wish to promote a commercial solution or service to the community please review our Corporate Partnership program.

 

I understand that this rule covers both posts and signatures, so my question is does it cover addons? To be entirely honest the way that addon is formulated clearly leads to a commercial product, or at least to the installation of such, all that from a member that does not pay, and never has paid, any kind sponsorship plan whatsoever, whilst still gathering clients from this forum.

 

I just wanted to know if that is acceptable to you.

Thanks.

post-102418-0-31948500-1369051639_thumb.jpg


~ Don't mistake my kindness for weakness ~

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I understand that this rule covers both posts and signatures, so my question is does it cover addons? To be entirely honest the way that addon is formulated clearly leads to a commercial product, or at least to the installation of such, all that from a member that does not pay, and never has paid, any kind sponsorship plan whatsoever, whilst still gathering clients from this forum.

I don't know what the policy is for the addons and mentioning installation of it but I have been noticing that mention on many addons. In fact, there is one that doesn't even have the addon uploaded. You have to go to his site to download it. So I assumed that was OK to do. It might be one of the things that Harold mentioned as falling through the cracks. If he says it is against the rules, then I certainly won't do it.

 

However, your statement above does bother me. Do you have the slightest idea how long it takes to code and maintain an addon? Look at my addons, their popularity and the support I offer here. If that isn't paying, I don't know what is. If others want to pay to sponsor the package that is their choice but I would argue that in most cases, what I offer in time and effort far outweighs any sponsorshop payment and helps keep the oscommerce package alive and prospering. There is nothing preventing you from installing the package yourself. And, if you do and you get stuck, I will help. But not everyone is able or willing to do that - thus that statement.

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I don't know what the policy is for the addons and mentioning installation

 

neither do I, hence my post.

 

there is one that doesn't even have the addon uploaded. You have to go to his site to download it.

 

That is obviously unacceptable, imho.

 

However, your statement above does bother me. Do you have the slightest idea how long it takes to code and maintain an addon? Look at my addons, their popularity and the support I offer here. If that isn't paying, I don't know what is. If others want to pay to sponsor the package that is their choice but I would argue that in most cases, what I offer in time and effort far outweighs any sponsorshop payment and helps keep the oscommerce package alive and prospering. There is nothing preventing you from installing the package yourself. And, if you do and you get stuck, I will help. But not everyone is able or willing to do that - thus that statement.

 

What bothers me is the fact that professionals like you seemingly don't find it useful, or necessary, to support this project even though they have been making money for years out of it, and even though the cheapest sponsorship plan costs as little as 10 Euros per month. Moreover, they post into their addons what I personally see as commercial advertisements.

I simply asked if that was allowed ot not.

 

I never questioned the quality of your work as I am not competent to do that, I am sure others would do that a lot better than myself, and I never questioned the quality of your support either.


~ Don't mistake my kindness for weakness ~

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