Harald,
I tend to agree with Deborah, and I know you have had conversations with Linda, and I have sent you some notes on the situation.
There are plenty of people who are willing to help and have consistently been of service. There are also people who consistently do nothing to add to a conversation but simply add fuel to the fire. And there are people who seem to delight in starting arguments.
The rules are the rules, and as long as they are applied consistently across the board, then there is really nothing more to be said about them other than follow them or don't participate.
Some people know better, and some people have previously been warned about inappropriate behavior, yet they continue to do what they have been warned not to.
So what is to be done? Do we ban them? Do we mark them? Do we change their permissions to read only?
Its a difficult call to make, but it is comething that needs to be done.
just my thoughts
Latest News: (loading..)
0
129 replies to this topic
#21
Posted 04 May 2003, 03:08
Reading is beneficial - Searching is enlightening
find answers at wiki.oscommerce.com/top
find answers at wiki.oscommerce.com/top
#22
-
- Community Member
- 6,765 posts
- Real Name:G Burton
- Gender:Male
- Location:UK/DEVon/NULL -> get it, hardeharhar.
Posted 04 May 2003, 08:09
After the debacle over the past few months, with regards;
1) editing/moving of posts and then giving BS about the reasons for doing so
2) certain people being allowed to carry URLs in their signatures
3) the number of self-appointed OscKops
4) The response from HPDL in one of the "My Store" threads
5) The lack of response from emails/PMs to the Core Team (and then getting the stock answer "we get 100s of emails daily)
6) Receiving email from <unknown> regarding not showing "copyright oscommerce" on a site
7) People defacing others sites who they feel have wronged Oscommerce
No-one is perfect and no-one is expected to be, but there are a select few (including some in the Core Team) who consistently amaze and dissappoint me.
I've pretty much given up posting within these Forums (down to maybe a post a day average), and really don't believe that Oscommerce is going the right way. To the casual observer, it seems that the strict control over what Oscommerce can do, be used for, what other sites can be set up etc will lead to Oscommerce becoming not Open Source anymore.
There are at least two Core Team members who run sites that deal exclusively with Oscommerce - and yet when someone else sets up such a site, they are universally panned and told that it should all be done "in house".
I could go on, but I have a site to build...
ps, no offence intended re the above points. If you don't like what you read within this whole thread, then you know you are being spoke about.
1) editing/moving of posts and then giving BS about the reasons for doing so
2) certain people being allowed to carry URLs in their signatures
3) the number of self-appointed OscKops
4) The response from HPDL in one of the "My Store" threads
5) The lack of response from emails/PMs to the Core Team (and then getting the stock answer "we get 100s of emails daily)
6) Receiving email from <unknown> regarding not showing "copyright oscommerce" on a site
7) People defacing others sites who they feel have wronged Oscommerce
No-one is perfect and no-one is expected to be, but there are a select few (including some in the Core Team) who consistently amaze and dissappoint me.
I've pretty much given up posting within these Forums (down to maybe a post a day average), and really don't believe that Oscommerce is going the right way. To the casual observer, it seems that the strict control over what Oscommerce can do, be used for, what other sites can be set up etc will lead to Oscommerce becoming not Open Source anymore.
There are at least two Core Team members who run sites that deal exclusively with Oscommerce - and yet when someone else sets up such a site, they are universally panned and told that it should all be done "in house".
I could go on, but I have a site to build...
ps, no offence intended re the above points. If you don't like what you read within this whole thread, then you know you are being spoke about.
#23
Posted 04 May 2003, 08:26
All input from people who have knowledge of oscommerce and how to make it work is welcome from anyone with that knowledge to share. However, Gary, your comments sound like they are coming from someone who is burned out from helping and chooses not to for the time being. No one says you have to be here and you have to help.
Yes, I am part of the lastest so called debacle, but you know what? I have also spent a great deal more time than I should have helping other new people and not-so-new people on these boards. You don't know how many PM's ANY of us get and answer. What you see on the boards is a small percentage of the private help that is asked for and given. And should we let a post go totally unanwered if we don't have time for a detailed explanation yet again of a common question? Isn't a brief, go search on such-and-such better than nothing? Many people really haven't looked in that upper right had corner and really don't know that search button is there until it is pointed out to them. That isn't rude, that's HELPFUL.
And cross-posting in ANY forum, not jus ton this site, IS rude.
Consistently negative attitude doesn't do anyone any good, so if you need a break, take one. If you have an idea to build a better breadbox, no one is stopping you. You just can't call it osCommerce. You can call it Gary's Great New eCommerce solution.
Replace negative comments with constructive, positive solutions and many problems *POOF* go away.
(I disagree that the rules are unclear, only those that don't want to understand them seem to be the ones that find them unclear)
Yes, I am part of the lastest so called debacle, but you know what? I have also spent a great deal more time than I should have helping other new people and not-so-new people on these boards. You don't know how many PM's ANY of us get and answer. What you see on the boards is a small percentage of the private help that is asked for and given. And should we let a post go totally unanwered if we don't have time for a detailed explanation yet again of a common question? Isn't a brief, go search on such-and-such better than nothing? Many people really haven't looked in that upper right had corner and really don't know that search button is there until it is pointed out to them. That isn't rude, that's HELPFUL.
And cross-posting in ANY forum, not jus ton this site, IS rude.
Consistently negative attitude doesn't do anyone any good, so if you need a break, take one. If you have an idea to build a better breadbox, no one is stopping you. You just can't call it osCommerce. You can call it Gary's Great New eCommerce solution.
Replace negative comments with constructive, positive solutions and many problems *POOF* go away.
(I disagree that the rules are unclear, only those that don't want to understand them seem to be the ones that find them unclear)
Deborah a.k.a. Loxly
Learn to Set up and Manage Your Affiliate Program
Learn to Set up and Manage Your Affiliate Program
#24
Posted 04 May 2003, 08:38
I would like to see signatures removed altogether (or limited to one line).
Maybe I exagerate but I seem to have seen one line answers followed by half a page of poems (which get boring after you have read them 500 times), requests for donations, portfolio of websites etc.
There are places in the user profiles for this information. It doesn't need to be included with every message.
When it comes down to it though, it is all about attitude. As the community has grown some people have a bad attitude and the larger the community grows, the harder this behaviour is to control - hence the need at this stage for clearer rules and enforrcement.
Maybe I exagerate but I seem to have seen one line answers followed by half a page of poems (which get boring after you have read them 500 times), requests for donations, portfolio of websites etc.
There are places in the user profiles for this information. It doesn't need to be included with every message.
When it comes down to it though, it is all about attitude. As the community has grown some people have a bad attitude and the larger the community grows, the harder this behaviour is to control - hence the need at this stage for clearer rules and enforrcement.
#25
-
- Community Member
- 6,765 posts
- Real Name:G Burton
- Gender:Male
- Location:UK/DEVon/NULL -> get it, hardeharhar.
Posted 04 May 2003, 11:07
Quote
Deborah (of Loxly - my own fantasy kingdom)
I actually made a bet with someone that *you* would be the one to respond directly to my post. He now owes me a beer. Thanks for winning the bet for me
Ahhh, lovely.How I love OscKops.
#26
Posted 04 May 2003, 11:10
The more I think about it the more I reach the conclusion that the community is a victim of osCommerce's success.
The forums have become more difficult to search, generous people who have helped out in the forums and with contributions are feeling put upon through the extra demands on their time and patience. Newbies sometimes demand support from others without realising the nature of the community.
Added to that, there is a growing tendency across the internet for things that were once free to require a small fee. Personally I like the idea of osCommerce being free of charge as well as free to use.
What's the answer?
Well, much I love the small community feel there used to be, I think we now need more structure and organisation. This is what happens in societies as they grow, and has already started to happen. I am a volunteer editor for the Open Directory which has a multi-tier structure of editors. Maybe this wouldn't work here but it would be nice to take some of the pressure off the senior members so they would more time to deal with the more challenging issues.
The forums have become more difficult to search, generous people who have helped out in the forums and with contributions are feeling put upon through the extra demands on their time and patience. Newbies sometimes demand support from others without realising the nature of the community.
Added to that, there is a growing tendency across the internet for things that were once free to require a small fee. Personally I like the idea of osCommerce being free of charge as well as free to use.
What's the answer?
Well, much I love the small community feel there used to be, I think we now need more structure and organisation. This is what happens in societies as they grow, and has already started to happen. I am a volunteer editor for the Open Directory which has a multi-tier structure of editors. Maybe this wouldn't work here but it would be nice to take some of the pressure off the senior members so they would more time to deal with the more challenging issues.
#27
-
- Community Member
- 6,765 posts
- Real Name:G Burton
- Gender:Male
- Location:UK/DEVon/NULL -> get it, hardeharhar.
Posted 04 May 2003, 11:13
To get the thread back on topic, I'd suggest a move away from phpBB;
- its bandwidth heavy compared to other boards
- its difficult to search unless you know the correct tricks to do so
Perhaps not being on phpBB (or updating the search facility at least - IIRC there is a module for a better search facility) would help immensely with people asking the same questions day in, day out ?
- its bandwidth heavy compared to other boards
- its difficult to search unless you know the correct tricks to do so
Perhaps not being on phpBB (or updating the search facility at least - IIRC there is a module for a better search facility) would help immensely with people asking the same questions day in, day out ?
#28
Posted 04 May 2003, 13:36
Quote
(I disagree that the rules are unclear, only those that don't want to understand them seem to be the ones that find them unclear)
I have no objection to anyone's current interpretation of the rules, but it's unclear from the rules why it's OK to say I like * editor or tool and not OK to I say I like *.com hosting company, when neither is free, and both could be considered commercial posts. I like hearing what editors and tools people like and don't mind hearing what hosting company they like. I also don't mind not saying what hosting companies I like, now that I know it's not kosher.
Burt: I agree that this board gets pretty slow at times and the search became a lot more useful after I figured out I should put AND between every word every time.
In olden times the men were made of iron and the ships were made of wood; now it's the other way around. :wink:
#29
-
- Community Member
- 6,765 posts
- Real Name:G Burton
- Gender:Male
- Location:UK/DEVon/NULL -> get it, hardeharhar.
Posted 04 May 2003, 14:25
Quote
but it's unclear from the rules why it's OK to say I like * editor or tool and not OK to I say I like *.com hosting company
From what I can gather (reading between the lines) of posts made by a number of people, this is because *.com hosting co. makes money from the hard work done by the Core Team and the other people who have contributed.
You'll notice that Pair Networks has an Ad up there ^ and it appears to be OK to mention them in response to an "I am looking for a host " question - I've seen this done on a few occasions. This would most likely be because they have sponsored the Forum...
But even if another Host made a donation for every hosting account sold for hosting Oscommerce, would they be allowed to be mentioned in Posts ? Of course not!
#30
-
- Community Member
- 6,765 posts
- Real Name:G Burton
- Gender:Male
- Location:UK/DEVon/NULL -> get it, hardeharhar.
Posted 04 May 2003, 14:26
Quote
Burt: I agree that this board gets pretty slow at times and the search became a lot more useful after I figured out I should put AND between every word every time.
Sometimes it also helps to put a few stars in front of your search term.
eg *****order instead of just order. I don't know why this is thsough.
hth
#31
Posted 04 May 2003, 14:47
Quote
4) The response from HPDL in one of the "My Store" threads
Which one? I can only think of one and will be suprised if you still have an issue with that.
Quote
I've pretty much given up posting within these Forums (down to maybe a post a day average)
You've posted a minimum of 5 today just in this thread
Quote
I could go on, but I have a site to build...
I find that remark, and your reply to Deborah, are not really helping the situation.
You shouldn't be taking things too personal, and should also not be provoking people if you want the issues, attitude, and ego present on the forums (ala "the shadow") to be addressed.
Harald Ponce de Leon
osCommerce, Sell With Emotion
osCommerce, Sell With Emotion
#32
Posted 04 May 2003, 14:52
Hi all,
I have been coming here to the forum for awhile now...I have seen many posts by people acting as if they are the moderators. These want-a-be moderators suck!!
I do not mind people to be told to go read the forum rules, but put a link to it to show the people where the rules are that they have most likely broken in mistake...
If you have taken the time to reply as a forum cop....at least be officer friendly.....instead of the hard nose one who places the statements like below...
I believe that the signitures should allow people to put their own web site or other information on it. Are you worried that they will post nothing but their signiture to act as advertising???
Very strange way to advertise indeed....Most people like to place something personal about themselves...their site or a comment or even lovely poem (to some they are)....What harm does this do, if it is not abused? Abuse can always be remedied easy enough.....
Worried that you will get lots of commercial sites trying to advertise?
Great, make up a new forum for these people,
Worried that it will cost more money due to band width?
Have a paying account for these people so they can advertise in that forum catagory only...
I think this would help out a lot of people, the ones who want to advertise....and the ones who are looking for a specific service.
This does not reflect on your project Harald, it is a great project and I hope to work with it for a long time, rather this will give an outlet to those people who want to show what they can do/give people a place to find others for a specific task...
I feel very comfortable having both the Open Source philosophy and making a little money too working with osc....
I think you must have enough work from people looking for you to do stuff and managing the project...and these forums...etc....
Might it be time to expand the work force some?? I am sure there would be lots of people willing to donate their time to moderate the forum pages when they are on....Just make sure they are pleasent too...
I would do this, but when ever I email or PM you Harald, I might get a reply.....after 3-4 weeks....if I am one of the lucky ones....
I understand you are busy, so maybe you could set up a catch all mail account for all the team members to sift though more often...
anyways....just my 2 cents.....
cheers,
I have been coming here to the forum for awhile now...I have seen many posts by people acting as if they are the moderators. These want-a-be moderators suck!!
I do not mind people to be told to go read the forum rules, but put a link to it to show the people where the rules are that they have most likely broken in mistake...
If you have taken the time to reply as a forum cop....at least be officer friendly.....instead of the hard nose one who places the statements like below...
Quote
that is not allowed in here....or against the rules etc...
I believe that the signitures should allow people to put their own web site or other information on it. Are you worried that they will post nothing but their signiture to act as advertising???
Very strange way to advertise indeed....Most people like to place something personal about themselves...their site or a comment or even lovely poem (to some they are)....What harm does this do, if it is not abused? Abuse can always be remedied easy enough.....
Worried that you will get lots of commercial sites trying to advertise?
Great, make up a new forum for these people,
Worried that it will cost more money due to band width?
Have a paying account for these people so they can advertise in that forum catagory only...
I think this would help out a lot of people, the ones who want to advertise....and the ones who are looking for a specific service.
This does not reflect on your project Harald, it is a great project and I hope to work with it for a long time, rather this will give an outlet to those people who want to show what they can do/give people a place to find others for a specific task...
I feel very comfortable having both the Open Source philosophy and making a little money too working with osc....
I think you must have enough work from people looking for you to do stuff and managing the project...and these forums...etc....
Might it be time to expand the work force some?? I am sure there would be lots of people willing to donate their time to moderate the forum pages when they are on....Just make sure they are pleasent too...
I would do this, but when ever I email or PM you Harald, I might get a reply.....after 3-4 weeks....if I am one of the lucky ones....
I understand you are busy, so maybe you could set up a catch all mail account for all the team members to sift though more often...
anyways....just my 2 cents.....
cheers,
Peter McGrath
-----------------------------
See my Profile (click here) for more information and to contact me for professional osCommerce support that includes SEO development, custom development and security implementation
-----------------------------
See my Profile (click here) for more information and to contact me for professional osCommerce support that includes SEO development, custom development and security implementation
#33
-
- Community Member
- 6,765 posts
- Real Name:G Burton
- Gender:Male
- Location:UK/DEVon/NULL -> get it, hardeharhar.
Posted 04 May 2003, 15:05
Quote
Which one? I can only think of one and will be suprised if you still have an issue with that.
Quote
You've posted a minimum of 5 today just in this thread
Quote
I find that remark, and your reply to Deborah, are not really helping the situation.
I have no time for people who make it their mission to belittle people wherever possible.
Quote
You shouldn't be taking things too personal, and should also not be provoking people if you want the issues, attitude, and ego present on the forums (ala "the shadow") to be addressed.
I contemplated a fork just a couple of weeks ago - I was very very close to doing so. And that was because of the way that certain people here look down on others ranging from certain members of the Core Team (not all though), to 10 or 12 "believers" who like to belittle people as if it's a sport. It smells bad.
The actions of a few are giving Oscommerce a bad name.
#34
-
- Community Member
- 6,765 posts
- Real Name:G Burton
- Gender:Male
- Location:UK/DEVon/NULL -> get it, hardeharhar.
Posted 04 May 2003, 15:12
ps, I believe strongly in Open Source and osCommerce. Having been involved in many OS projects in the 5 years I've been developing, this is by far the best I've ever been involved with.
But just now, something smells bad. You, the Core team and contributors have made a great piece of software, but it is being hurt by a few people right now. That's all.
Like I said before, no offence
But just now, something smells bad. You, the Core team and contributors have made a great piece of software, but it is being hurt by a few people right now. That's all.
Like I said before, no offence
#35
Posted 04 May 2003, 15:34
Quote
I had an issue with it, I still do, it was unfair and unprofessional for yu to steam into the thread not knowing all of the facts and then when you did know them, threaten to ban me from this Forum. I decided to move on with my own thing, as I did not want to cause a bigger argument, which would upset the "status quo".
I was almost certain that the site reached with a new url would not contain the Powered by osCommerce text, as is required on the My Store thread if you want people to provide feedback on your store. That is why I asked for the new url and when it was provided, boom the powered by text was not to be seen on the site.
That to me is cheating the My Store forum guidelines, it doesn't matter if it comes from you, from someone that just made one post to the forums, or from a core team member.
I did not know that you had asked a team member if that action was appropriate (thanks for asking). I believe this person now also sees it as "cheating the forum rules" and we all now know how to address it for future situations.
If you like we can continue this discussion on a new thread or offlist so that we know each others thoughts on the issue.
Quote
You know what I mean
I find it great that regardless of the "leaving" remarks made that you're still here. [that's not sarcasm or to be taken negatively]
Quote
Loxly's reply which was aimed at me *personally* is OK ? Come on Harald, one rule for one, and another rule for another ? And I got my drink already anyway
I think she provided a valid reason of cause in regard to being overburned.
Quote
I don't think you are addressing the situation - it's fairly obvious that these OscKops need to be sorted out as a matter of priority isn't it ?
Today is Sunday, I'd rather be enjoying the sun outside rather than being inside dealing with "OscKops"
We are dealing with the situation, it will take a little time before something happens as the team is not all located under the same roof.
Quote
I contemplated a fork just a couple of weeks ago - I was very very close to doing so. And that was because of the way that certain people here look down on others ranging from certain members of the Core Team (not all though), to 10 or 12 "believers" who like to belittle people as if it's a sport. It smells bad.
The actions of a few are giving Oscommerce a bad name.
The actions of a few are giving Oscommerce a bad name.
The cat is out of the bag now and the issues will be dealt with.
Harald Ponce de Leon
osCommerce, Sell With Emotion
osCommerce, Sell With Emotion
#36
-
- Community Member
- 6,765 posts
- Real Name:G Burton
- Gender:Male
- Location:UK/DEVon/NULL -> get it, hardeharhar.
Posted 04 May 2003, 15:47
Quote
If you like we can continue this discussion on a new thread or offlist so that we know each others thoughts on the issue.
Quote
I find it great that regardless of the "leaving" remarks made that you're still here. [that's not sarcasm or to be taken negatively]
Quote
I think she provided a valid reason of cause in regard to being overburned.
Quote
Today is Sunday, I'd rather be enjoying the sun outside rather than being inside dealing with "OscKops"
Quote
The cat is out of the bag now and the issues will be dealt with.
#37
Posted 04 May 2003, 22:46
I was going to stay completely out of this thread but, there have been several references to "oscKops" an "wannabe Moderators" and I am offended.
Yes, I have pointed people to the search button but, I usually give them a hint of what to search for and how to do it. Yes, cross-posting drives me nuts but, I generally ask the poster to please read the FAQ/Rules. Posting without reading the stickies is also a pet peave. If that puts me in the category of oscKop or wannabe Moderator well....so be it. If my help is no longer wanted or needed, I'll pack up my things and go home. If you want me to continue as I have, give me a title and a "delete key".
But, as was stated earlier, the forums and user-base have grown tremendously over the past few months. Things have gotten very unruly at times, we have all fallen into the "mob mentality" at one point or another and lost our cool. Considering the size of this forum there really are comparitively few rules. The ones that are in place DO need to be enforced, they need to be dealt with swiftly and without reservation. Someone is going to have to take the role of the "badguy" that slaps hands, moves/removes posts, etc. or we will have anarchy.
So the question is HOW do we keep things running smoothly and free up the core team for more important things? How about some good suggestions...
Yes, I have pointed people to the search button but, I usually give them a hint of what to search for and how to do it. Yes, cross-posting drives me nuts but, I generally ask the poster to please read the FAQ/Rules. Posting without reading the stickies is also a pet peave. If that puts me in the category of oscKop or wannabe Moderator well....so be it. If my help is no longer wanted or needed, I'll pack up my things and go home. If you want me to continue as I have, give me a title and a "delete key".
But, as was stated earlier, the forums and user-base have grown tremendously over the past few months. Things have gotten very unruly at times, we have all fallen into the "mob mentality" at one point or another and lost our cool. Considering the size of this forum there really are comparitively few rules. The ones that are in place DO need to be enforced, they need to be dealt with swiftly and without reservation. Someone is going to have to take the role of the "badguy" that slaps hands, moves/removes posts, etc. or we will have anarchy.
So the question is HOW do we keep things running smoothly and free up the core team for more important things? How about some good suggestions...
Kim
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
#38
Posted 04 May 2003, 23:37
Quote
If you want me to continue as I have, give me a title and a "delete key". ... Considering the size of this forum there really are comparitively few rules. The ones that are in place DO need to be enforced, they need to be dealt with swiftly and without reservation. Someone is going to have to take the role of the "badguy" that slaps hands, moves/removes posts, etc. or we will have anarchy. ... How about some good suggestions...
In olden times the men were made of iron and the ships were made of wood; now it's the other way around. :wink:
#39
-
- Community Member
- 1,201 posts
- Real Name:Stuart Owens
- Location:Great Southeastern Washington Desert, USA
Posted 04 May 2003, 23:50
Quote
Quote
BirdBrain wrote:
If you want me to continue as I have, give me a title and a "delete key". ... Considering the size of this forum there really are comparitively few rules. The ones that are in place DO need to be enforced, they need to be dealt with swiftly and without reservation. Someone is going to have to take the role of the "badguy" that slaps hands, moves/removes posts, etc. or we will have anarchy. ... How about some good suggestions...
If you want me to continue as I have, give me a title and a "delete key". ... Considering the size of this forum there really are comparitively few rules. The ones that are in place DO need to be enforced, they need to be dealt with swiftly and without reservation. Someone is going to have to take the role of the "badguy" that slaps hands, moves/removes posts, etc. or we will have anarchy. ... How about some good suggestions...
... if you want to REALLY see something that doesn't set up right out of the box without some tweaking,
try being a Foster Parent!
try being a Foster Parent!
#40
Posted 04 May 2003, 23:53
Quote
Quote
Quote
BirdBrain wrote:
If you want me to continue as I have, give me a title and a "delete key". ... Considering the size of this forum there really are comparitively few rules. The ones that are in place DO need to be enforced, they need to be dealt with swiftly and without reservation. Someone is going to have to take the role of the "badguy" that slaps hands, moves/removes posts, etc. or we will have anarchy. ... How about some good suggestions...
If you want me to continue as I have, give me a title and a "delete key". ... Considering the size of this forum there really are comparitively few rules. The ones that are in place DO need to be enforced, they need to be dealt with swiftly and without reservation. Someone is going to have to take the role of the "badguy" that slaps hands, moves/removes posts, etc. or we will have anarchy. ... How about some good suggestions...
3rd that nomination.....!
