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Can we be better shop-owners?


Dan Cole

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Some of our recent threads have me wondering about the message that we are sending as shop-owners to both our coders and those who are considering osCommerce. Reading some of those threads must be a confusing, frustrating and demoralizing experience. They are certainly not very uplifting or motoviting. I also wonder about the message it sends to the larger community -- those looking for e-commerce software.

 

Trying to look at things from a coders point of view I can see how frustrating it must be to deal with us. We continue to have the same discussions over and over again...some complain but never pony up. Some offer up illogical positions that probably most of us disagree with. Others continue to push their own priorities and can't see the big picture. Some continue to drag up the same old issues even when it seems that we have already reached a consensus. Others seem to only be interested in derailing any progress being made. And then there is the majority of us who just want the best for osCommerce.

 

I understand that we all have different views but this certainly must a source of frustration and confusion to anyone trying to move things forward or who are considering osCommerce. I'm not saying that everything is the fault of us shop-owners, I'm just saying that I think we can do a far better job.

 

Given this reality I'm wondering if we shouldn't find a better way to gather input and distill it down to something use-able and actionable. In others words some way of pulling together a consensus that is helpful to the developers and that won't demean or drag them into the quagmire that seems to evolve around some of these issues. I'm not suggesting that we limit peoples opinions just that we develop a method to collect it and put the resulting position, the opinion of the majority, forward in a logical and constructive manner.

 

I think we can do better. Do you agree or disagree? If you do agree, what thoughts do you have on how we might accomplish this?

 

Dan

 

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For me, the problem come from the communication by the team and this the problem.

 

First where we go and how to go :

 

Example :

We can have a minor release and major release. The major relaease break with the old release.

 

To take an example, currently there is a discussion on Odoo concerning the V9 break with the V8 and just before another release V8 break the V7. The V8 has just 1 year old ! Lot of people are not happy, but in reality all people adapt to the new release and propose new opensource add on. That's evolution and adaptation for their customer, community and competitor.

 

We need to accept at the moment there is a break if we want to increase and adapt the solution with the need trend.

 

For ex  when HPDL has developped the 2.4. it break the code and some people are not happy with that. That's why it stopped the development.

But when I Iook the currently development on OSC Bootstrap, it break the code with the Osc Release. At the end, this the same thing !

 

In all case, the module must be adapted and this is the evolution.

 

All that to say, we must not be afraid with the futur

 

2/ Roadmap

 

if we have a roadmap with minor release and major release. it will be better.

 

At the end, also, the forum miss a strong leadership and I don't understand why HPDL not say something with the current discussion. Maybe he is tired. I don't know.

It's very important to fix some information and to fix also all the discussion  inside the forum currently.

 

Only the leader can do that to fix the way.

 

It's my point of view.


Regards
-----------------------------------------
Loïc

Contact me by skype for business
Contact me @gyakutsuki for an answer on the forum

 

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@@Dan Cole I agree with the principle of what you are saying but in this setting it's basically a free for all at times when it comes to comments and input in the forum.  How many times have you seen posts go off topic and / or are simply counter productive to the topic at hand.  I don't know how you can control that on a short term post by post basis.

 

Perhaps we should look at what the other open source forums are doing such as Joomla WP and even osCommerce "competitors" if I may use that term, are doing.  The ones I check in seem to be thriving.

 

I think we can wish list our brains out, and there's nothing wrong with that, but then who's going to do all this.  And why would they?  What's their motivation and incentive to give time, effort and coding skill?  I would be nice to think they do it because they love osCommerce.  But is that realistic?

I am not a professional webmaster or PHP coder by background or training but I will try to help as best I can.

I remember what it was like when I first started with osC. It can be overwhelming.

However, I strongly recommend considering hiring a professional for extensive site modifications, site cleaning, etc.

There are several good pros here on osCommerce. Look around, you'll figure out who they are.

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@@Gyakutsuki

 

For me, the problem come from the communication by the team and this the problem.

 

Loic, communication is certainly a major part of it.  The ironic part is that the team was attempting to do exactly what we were asking in it's communication to us -- it was setting out the basic direction in which things were headed.  I believe Gary was attempting to clarify what version of osC was becoming the standard and perhaps hoping to pull the community together so he could get some much needed help in implementing the changes that were being planned. Perhaps the communication should have gone further in addressing whether the responsive version would be added to the download section or not and if so, when but for us to react in the way we did was probably pretty tough on the team.   In my opinion we should have been congratulating them on taking that step and attempting to lend a hand to help move things forward. 

 

I don't want to rehash those threads but it would be nice we could learn from the experience and find a better way to communicate with the team.  One that is respectful, productive and perhaps motivating.

 

Dan

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I agree with you. Just we need just a trend line and a clear development like explain above (minor version (2.30,2.3.1 ...) / major version (2.3,2.4,2.5). If we know that, we know the trend and all the community should accept this orientation with no problem.... euh I think.


Regards
-----------------------------------------
Loïc

Contact me by skype for business
Contact me @gyakutsuki for an answer on the forum

 

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@@Dan Cole  That is exactly what I was trying to do. I asked Harald and Gary for a clear plan and schedule. Nothing fancy, just enough to know that we had a goal and were headed towards it. Both have ignored the question, answered in vague generalities, and eventually stopped posting at all.

 

Apparently I should not have asked. If I knew that would be the result I would not have.

 

Regards

Jim

See my profile for a list of my addons and ways to get support.

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@@Gyakutsuki

 

 

Loic, communication is certainly a major part of it.  The ironic part is that the team was attempting to do exactly what we were asking in it's communication to us -- it was setting out the basic direction in which things were headed.  I believe Gary was attempting to clarify what version of osC was becoming the standard and perhaps hoping to pull the community together so he could get some much needed help in implementing the changes that were being planned. Perhaps the communication should have gone further in addressing whether the responsive version would be added to the download section or not and if so, when but for us to react in the way we did was probably pretty tough on the team.   In my opinion we should have been congratulating them on taking that step and attempting to lend a hand to help move things forward. 

 

I don't want to rehash those threads but it would be nice we could learn from the experience and find a better way to communicate with the team.  One that is respectful, productive and perhaps motivating.

 

Dan

 

Communication must work both ways. There has been a recent trend on here that some of the main team who receive suggestions outright refuse to listen and to take on board what others want, or would like. I have spent ages saying oscommerces needs to be made fit for purpose as much of it is old and dated, and only recently has the hard working Gary started to have the same opinion, as can be seen on his personal site, and he was trying to do something about it. Well done to him.

 

At the end on the day, if oscommerce does not give what people want, they will go else where, which is what is happening with both developers and shop owners. Developers are going because there is no direction, and shop owners are going because oscommerce does not do what they want it to do.

 

My view is that BS should be added, and it should have been added already. A version has been available for over a year now, but its still not been worked on to get to a standard where in can be added to the main package. It did seem like a one man effort and a private project as has already been stated in other posts. If it had been released, or at least if a date was set for its release many developers would start working on new versions of existing addons. This has not happened and the project has stalled. As a community we should all have been involved and all helped it progress forward.

REMEMBER BACKUP, BACKUP AND BACKUP

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I would agree with Dan - the forum is perhaps messy for a new owner to navigate/find out what's where - maybe there could be a better delineation of 'coding' topics from 'shop management' topics?

 

As for the future? I don't see any difference in the current GitHub feeding frenzy over bootstrap to any other modded up osCommerce - e.g. ZenCart, CRELoaded, oSCMax and so on. Discussion of those is frowned upon here (maybe even banned I dunno) so why is this one allowed?

 

Ahh - it's going to be the 'new' 2.4? Great - well get that 'official', get a roadmap and develop the software properly - currently all I can see is a confusion where people are duplicating work, breaking things, mending things. There needs to be a roadmap to 2.4 - get a beta version locked down so that we can work add-ons into the code properly - until that happens we're all just going around in circles.

 

However Open Source coding does mean just that - so if it is not going the way we like we can try and change it, go with the flow or just walk away.......

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@@kymation

 

Apparently I should not have asked. If I knew that would be the result I would not have.

 

Jim, I don't think anyone would say that the question shouldn't have been asked.  It is the next step so it's a logical question and I think anyone concerned about osCommerce probably was questioning the same thing.   It went through my mind too.  However, looking back through that thread I think you'll agree that there has got to be a better way for us to pull together and interact with each other.  Re-reading it I was thinking...if this was my team, my staff, my friends or my whatever, would I sit by and allow them to treat each other that way.  Would you? Would any of us shop-owners stand for that?  I don't think so -- we can do better! 

 

Anyway I don't want to rehash those threads.  I think what is done is done so lets turn this around and make the most of it.   What can we as shop-owners do to create a better method or process to communicate with the team in a co-coordinated, respectful and productive manner?   

 

Does anyone have any suggestions regarding that?

 

Dan

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Perhaps something like a shop owner advocate in the process.  Person or persons officially designated and recognized to liaise with concerned parties, perhaps act as a clearing house to help prioritize needs.   Should be someone who actively runs osC based shops and understand enough of the coding to speak knowledgeably.   It would help if they understood shop site management, principles of SEO, etc. This would need cooperation of and recognition by the official keepers of the code of course.

I am not a professional webmaster or PHP coder by background or training but I will try to help as best I can.

I remember what it was like when I first started with osC. It can be overwhelming.

However, I strongly recommend considering hiring a professional for extensive site modifications, site cleaning, etc.

There are several good pros here on osCommerce. Look around, you'll figure out who they are.

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@@altoid

 

Perhaps something like a shop owner advocate in the process.  Person or persons officially designated and recognized to liaise with concerned parties, perhaps act as a clearing house to help prioritize needs.   Should be someone who actively runs osC based shops and understand enough of the coding to speak knowledgeably.   It would help if they understood shop site management, principles of SEO, etc. This would need cooperation of and recognition by the official keepers of the code of course.

 

I was thinking along the same lines Steve and was even wondering if we could elevate the status of "Community Sponsorship" so that only those members would interact with the team (with or without a shop-owner advocate).  There could also be a private forum area just for "Community Sponsors" where that type of  communication could take place out of the "public".  There are probably other options too...lets see what comes forward.  At the end of our discussion I will submit our collective suggestions to the team and they can do with it what they will.

 

Dan

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A democratic election to create a shop owner representant by a survey ? Election for only person has a shop and is not a web company. It's a proposition

The goal is to define the objective, rule of theses persons and can propose to the team a summary of the need, problem ...

They are a link between community and Team and elected for 1 or 2 years or for the time a release.

All interested by this aspect can propse their ideas, who I am, what I want to do for the community, how to represent the others shop owner....

 

other idea, another forum can be created only for the shop owner and it can have different conversation for only shop owner problems  

 

 

For add on , we need a new branch, because all the add on currently are on the same branch, 2.34 BS, 2.34 ...  need a clarification about that, because it's not clear

Bugs reports has been abandonned since the BS has began, It's a problem. Lot people insert a bug add on then  it's only core bug

 

Lot of point must be resolved shortly by a communication.

But for me, the more important is the clarification between BS and RC very shortly by HPDL. This is the key to resolve all the conversation in the community.

 

I don't it's a good ideas for all these suggestions, I try toa nswer at your question, Dan. pertinent or not Idon't know.


Regards
-----------------------------------------
Loïc

Contact me by skype for business
Contact me @gyakutsuki for an answer on the forum

 

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@@Dan Cole your approach is a great idea. In my opinion, there needs to be a developers only arena where the serious developers that are interested in moving OSC forward should dwell. Only a chosen few should be allowed. 

 

Then a forum where the developers present the changes or roadmap to the community sponsors. From there, the community sponsors can communicate with the rest of the community. Any modules spawned from the communication of the developers and community sponsors meant for the core, should be protected from modification. Meaning all bug fixes should come from the developer's team and not allowed to be uploaded to the addons area. Also, support for developer's modules should be in a highly moderated thread. All other modules and/or bug fixes presented to the community should be used at own risk and supported by the coder. 

 

That will in some ways control the development process and keep it on track and above all lessen the irrelevant feedback. We've lost a valuable gem in the forums and it's surely a wake up call for me. All he wanted was meaningful feedback. We shouldn't take the commitment of the developer's and faithful contributors for granted any longer. They've donated valuable time, resources, and insight at no cost.

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Thought I would refocus and consolidate the ideas/options that have come forward so far.   Thanks to those who have commented to this point.   Hopefully this will lead to a better way to communicate with the team.

 

A.  Do nothing.  (This always seems to be an option.)

B.  Establish a Shop-owners advocate or perhaps advocates.

C.  Take conversations regarding the future direction of the 'core' software and other operational issues semi-private using a forum that is restricted to the core team and community sponsors.

 

Comments on these ideas and any new ones that you might have, are welcomed and encouraged.  :thumbsup:

 

The more the merrier..

 

Dan

 

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@@Dan Cole I think both B and C can be done together. Shop owner advocates can start new threads that can and should be moderated by the advocates. Those like Kymation, Mr.Phil, yourself and a few others would be great advocates. From reading you all posts from time to time, it seems you share great understanding of the code and know how developers/coders think. 

 

Just my thoughts.

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I agree and thought about that when I posted.  I should have added an option....

 

D.  Combination of B and C above.

 

Dan

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I figured it was probably time to put a sunset date on this.  If there are no active discussions going on this Saturday I'll sent the team a note indicating how we think the communication process can be improved between shop-owners and the team.  My plan would be to submit that note to the team this Sunday based on what I've concluded from this thread. 

 

For those of you who have not yet submitted your opinion please do so...your input is important.   For those of you who might be wondering why a better process is needed, please see this post.. :(

 

http://www.oscommerce.com/forums/topic/407221-just-found-this-on-garys-website-so-what-happens-next/?p=1724575

 

For those shop-owners who have been wanting to help out but weren't sure how, see this post...

 

http://www.oscommerce.com/forums/topic/400819-upcoming-changes/?p=1719048

 

Questions?   Just ask...

 

Dan

 

 

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D works for me - there has to be an input from shop owners on the official way forward or we run the risk of having to make do with what we are given - which is not always a bad thing but sometimes the shop owner input is required. For instance I have aired a couple of suggestions in the past that have found their way into templates or mods.

 

It would be nice to think the discussions would be a calm tranquil place without running the risk of someone taking the ball home if they were disagreed with....... but somehow Im thinking of the film Full metal jacket..

Now running on a fully modded, Mobile Friendly 2.3.4 Store with the Excellent MTS installed - See my profile for the mods installed ..... So much thanks for all the help given along the way by forum members.

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@@14steve14

 

Do we include all the other oscommerce forums in this, as there are many other language specific forums.

 

This is the only one I'm interested in....I have trouble with English  :) but the team is certainly free to do whatever they want with the suggestions we make. 

 

Dan

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I figured it was probably time to put a sunset date on this.  If there are no active discussions going on this Saturday I'll sent the team a note indicating how we think the communication process can be improved between shop-owners and the team.  My plan would be to submit that note to the team this Sunday based on what I've concluded from this thread.

 

Just a quick update.  I sent a PM to our Community Team summarizing our suggestions here and asking them to comment, support or reject it and pass it along to whoever needs to consider it.   In a day or so I'll post the PM that I sent here.  It is really just a summary of what was posted here but I think it only fair that the team have time to receive and consider it, before posting it. 

 

In the meantime thanks to all those who participated in this thread.  Hopefully the discussion will lead to a better communication process to the benefit all.

 

Dan

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Why send an email. Why not just ask them to read this thread, then they get to see it all. They can then comment if they wish, like they could have done within this thread already.

REMEMBER BACKUP, BACKUP AND BACKUP

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