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Where do we report issues with current development of V2.2?

Started by AlanR, Feb 19 2010 02:22 PM

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14 replies to this topic

#1   AlanR

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 02:22 PM

The doctype declaration change from:

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">

to

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd"> (which is correct)

breaks the simple centering and fixed width fix with CSS which I know many, many, people are using.

I was thinking of solutions for this and there are a couple but it would seem that the most logical fix would be to move all of this...

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
<html <?php echo HTML_PARAMS; ?>>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=<?php echo CHARSET; ?>">
<title><?php echo TITLE; ?></title>
<base href="<?php echo (($request_type == 'SSL') ? HTTPS_SERVER : HTTP_SERVER) . DIR_WS_CATALOG; ?>">
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="stylesheet.css">
</head>
<body>
into the header and the corresponding ending code on every page...

</body>
</html>
into the footer.

That's the way that most sites are coded but I'm sure there's some reason, historical or otherwise that it's not that way. I'm sure this question has been raised before over the years but I guess I'll ask it again.

I don't want to deviate very much from what will be coming as the base version in the next release since that will make my life more complicated.

Answers from anyone?
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#2   MrPhil

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 04:43 PM

Unfortunately, the page "overhead" is hardcoded in each file, rather than being included from a common source. And, it will take several include files to handle it, because some files have Javascript or additional <meta> tags to insert into the <head> section. It would have been a much cleaner design to include all this stuff in an include or a function call, but for whatever reason, no one ever bothered to.

Even more unfortunately, don't count on any more development in version 2.2. We've been stuck at RC2a for years now. RC3 was promised to be released a month ago, but I'm not holding my breath. All development effort, such as there is, appears to be going into 3.0, leaving 2.2 abandoned. Such is life. I'm sure Mark or Harald will respond in some fashion to deny this, but the fact is that no progress has been made on 2.2 in years. They can claim all they want that 2.2 is still under development, but until fresh releases appear, I'm not believing it.

#3   Jan Zonjee

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 05:14 PM

View PostMrPhil, on 19 February 2010 - 04:43 PM, said:

All development effort, such as there is, appears to be going into 3.0, leaving 2.2 abandoned.
A simple check of Harald's Github repository would have shown you that the exact opposite is true.

#4   AlanR

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 06:04 PM

View PostJan Zonjee, on 19 February 2010 - 05:14 PM, said:

A simple check of Harald's Github repository would have shown you that the exact opposite is true.
Indeed.

That's where I picked up the change that I'm asking about, a change within the last 48 hours.

I do think this is a fairly important concern since so many people have used the centering / fixed width modification. If they adopt the new code as is their shops will break.

The change, as I mentioned, is correct and it makes good sense. The centering / fixed width fix depends on browsers not reading the original doctype declaration correctly.

So some solution needs to be found prior to releasing this code.

Edited by AlanR, 19 February 2010 - 06:14 PM.

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#5   AlanR

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 07:00 PM

This is the change at github I refer to:

http://github.com/osCommerce/oscommerce2/commit/76ff538d7e3dc09eaa2acac64736d0abda4a923a
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#6   Harald Ponce de Leon

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 08:33 PM

Hi Alan..

Great catch and thanks for pointing this out!

I did not know that "fixing" the doctype would cause such incompatibilities. Quickly looking into this, it seems there is a difference with browsers rendering in quirks mode or in strict mode. Some information about this is available here:

http://www.quirksmode.org/css/quirksmode.html

Still contemplating what to do here.

Kind regards,
Harald Ponce de Leon

#7   Harald Ponce de Leon

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 08:57 PM

According to this article, using the following compliant doctype will make the browser render the page in quirks mode:

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC>

The intention of the fix was to use a compliant doctype - it looks like we'll need to update it again with the above.

Kind regards,
Harald Ponce de Leon

#8   AlanR

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 10:40 PM

It worked as it was before the change (with the code from github) ie:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">

It was only adding the system identifier, ie:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
that made it fail.

I'm going to experiment a little more and see if there are simple alternatives which will work and allow the use of the system identifier.
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#9   MrPhil

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:59 PM

View PostJan Zonjee, on 19 February 2010 - 05:14 PM, said:

A simple check of Harald's Github repository would have shown you that the exact opposite is true.
Sorry, but github updates don't count. What counts is only a formal release, be it 2.2 RC3 or 3.0 Beta 1. This is what Fantastico and other packaging services will pick up. This is what appears under "Downloads" on this site. This is the only source of osC that most people will ever try to use -- they don't want to mess with live development repositories (or what appear to be unstable development). In short, you can't just leave "the latest osC" on github and expect everyone to use it.

#10   AlanR

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 02:47 AM

View PostMrPhil, on 19 February 2010 - 11:59 PM, said:

Sorry, but github updates don't count. What counts is only a formal release, be it 2.2 RC3 or 3.0 Beta 1. This is what Fantastico and other packaging services will pick up. This is what appears under "Downloads" on this site. This is the only source of osC that most people will ever try to use -- they don't want to mess with live development repositories (or what appear to be unstable development). In short, you can't just leave "the latest osC" on github and expect everyone to use it.
That's kind of neither here nor there for this forum. This is a development forum and I'm perfectly aware I'm working with development code. Without development there will be no new release versions.
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#11   Harald Ponce de Leon

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 09:58 AM

Hi Alan..

View PostAlanR, on 19 February 2010 - 10:40 PM, said:

I'm going to experiment a little more and see if there are simple alternatives which will work and allow the use of the system identifier.

The doctype used previously made the browser render the page in quirks mode as it was an incorrect doctype. This was as if no doctype was specified at all.

Making the doctype compliant with the change in Github made the browser render the page in standard/strict mode, where there are differences as to how the elements within the HTML page are rendered (box model, margins, ...).

I did not know of this behaviour before and was interesting reading up on it.

The rendering bevhiour for v2.2 should not be changed and will remain in quirks mode. We're still testing if the shorter doctype can be used or if the change should be reverted.

Kind regards,
Harald Ponce de Leon

#12   AlanR

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 11:17 AM

The link you posted: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quirks_mode

seems to indicate that the previous doctype was not strictly incorrect but rather that it would force all browsers to render in quirks mode. See the table at the bottom of the page.

It may just be a choice of words though since the result is the same.
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#13   MrPhil

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 06:03 PM

View PostAlanR, on 20 February 2010 - 02:47 AM, said:

That's kind of neither here nor there for this forum. This is a development forum and I'm perfectly aware I'm working with development code. Without development there will be no new release versions.
I realize that this is a development board. What I'm saying is that for the vast majority of osC users, including almost all those who sign up for this site's forum, they don't want to have to go fishing through github to get the latest and greatest. They want a packaged, tested, approved, endorsed, production-ready (in the case of 2.2) release that they can put on their site and be confident that it will work and solve most of their problems. Most osC users are not developers or even programmers. They want something that works out of the box. They don't want to fool with the innards of osC -- at most, they'll install an add-on to fix something or gain new function, but that's pushing it for most store owners.

So, telling people reporting problems with 2.2 (problems that have been known literally for years) to go to github to get the latest and greatest just doesn't cut it. They want an RC3 (or better, Gold) that they can install/update in a clean and predictable fashion, so that they can install their add-ons, preserve their product and account base, and be up and running quickly. After all, most osC users are not here to indulge a programming hobby. They're here to run a business. It's obvious that you don't understand either the abilities or the mindset of most osC users -- they regard osC as a tool to get a needed job done, not as a "fun" project. They need "out of the box" solutions that work, or they'll go elsewhere.

#14   Juto

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 11:51 AM

View PostAlanR, on 19 February 2010 - 02:22 PM, said:

The doctype declaration change from:

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">

to

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd"> (which is correct)

breaks the simple centering and fixed width fix with CSS which I know many, many, people are using.

I was thinking of solutions for this and there are a couple but it would seem that the most logical fix would be to move all of this...

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
<html <?php echo HTML_PARAMS; ?>>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=<?php echo CHARSET; ?>">
<title><?php echo TITLE; ?></title>
<base href="<?php echo (($request_type == 'SSL') ? HTTPS_SERVER : HTTP_SERVER) . DIR_WS_CATALOG; ?>">
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="stylesheet.css">
</head>
<body>
into the header and the corresponding ending code on every page...

</body>
</html>
into the footer.

That's the way that most sites are coded but I'm sure there's some reason, historical or otherwise that it's not that way. I'm sure this question has been raised before over the years but I guess I'll ask it again.

I don't want to deviate very much from what will be coming as the base version in the next release since that will make my life more complicated.

Answers from anyone?

Contributions:
http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/8010  http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/8204  http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/8681

#15   Juto

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 11:54 AM

Hi, under "tips and tricks" I will post the correct way of how to center a shop and set it to constant height, with the correct doctype declaration (as per standard)

Kind regards

OSCmasters.se

Sara
Contributions:
http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/8010  http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/8204  http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/8681
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