I have a small toy import & wholesale company in the UK. Looking to move from existing web company to Open Source, been reading up a lot on ocCommerce v Magento and leaning towards osCommerce. The speed of pages on demo sites looks faster (or am I imagining that?) and add ons look extensive. However when I google 'comparison' there seems to be quite a few sites leaning towards Magento, example: http://www.wizonesolutions.com/2009/10/09/oscommerce-vs-magento-comparison-in-future/ Are these underhand tactics from people who have a vested interested in pushing Magento? or are there things I'm going to find better or easier in the Magento camp? I am aware most sites are comparing the 'basic' osCommerce package before add ons. This is a critical decision for me and the 3 other in the company so any help and advise is gratefully received.
Finally is it better to start with v2.2 or go straight to v3.0 Alpha 5 for a clean sheet start up site?
Thanks.
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10 replies to this topic
#2
Posted 21 November 2009, 02:52
The question is sort of what do you mean by small? If you can afford an IT team, and are willing to fork out the equivalent of $100-$200 month to have your site hosted on a well maintained and tuned dedicated server, then maybe, -maybe, I would look at Magento. I spent several weeks trying to switch out from OScommerce to Magento, before I gave up. At first I was amazed at how much stuff there is on Magento, it was pretty cool. It was such a joy to be able to use the CSS stylesheet to make major design changes in Magento, as opposed to the mass of tables in OSC v2.X.
Then I realized I was sorting through 6,000+ files and a massive database of over 200 tables, and who knows how many fields. The empty Magento database is at least 20mb, over 10x the size of OSC. Worse, was the realization that Magento is written in some pretty unusual php and xml. And jeebus, 6,000 files. If you think it is hard to find stuff in the OSC structure, in Magento, you have 3 to 4 times as many files and a deeper folder structure.
OScommerce is manageable if you are willing to learn some CSS, html, and php. A non professional can learn the programming from books, examples and websites to handle OScommerce. At the point where you have learned enough to do some really neat stuff in OSCommerce, you will, however just be beginning in Magento.
The fatal flaw in Magento is that it is slow. The few showcase sites that are up on the Magento site run okay, but if you look that server speeds that are delivering those web pages, you see that they are on some fast servers, not the $6.95/month shared host places that will run OSCommerce just fine . When you look on the Magento forum and go to the sites people put up for comments, you see how slow and draggy they are. A slow site loses customers. If you are really knowledgeable, willing to super tune Magento and pay serious money for a dedicated server, you might get Magento to run about as fast as OScommerce.
If you are starting out new, get version v3.0 Alpha. I say that for one big, major reason. It is table-less, and you can use CSS to design it. I can't speak to any other feature of v3.0, because I have next to no experience in it. I am pretty much stuck with v2.2 because I have spent the last 6 years modifying it, but it works just fine. I have however, stripped out all the tables, and it has made a world of difference in how I can design the website.
Then I realized I was sorting through 6,000+ files and a massive database of over 200 tables, and who knows how many fields. The empty Magento database is at least 20mb, over 10x the size of OSC. Worse, was the realization that Magento is written in some pretty unusual php and xml. And jeebus, 6,000 files. If you think it is hard to find stuff in the OSC structure, in Magento, you have 3 to 4 times as many files and a deeper folder structure.
OScommerce is manageable if you are willing to learn some CSS, html, and php. A non professional can learn the programming from books, examples and websites to handle OScommerce. At the point where you have learned enough to do some really neat stuff in OSCommerce, you will, however just be beginning in Magento.
The fatal flaw in Magento is that it is slow. The few showcase sites that are up on the Magento site run okay, but if you look that server speeds that are delivering those web pages, you see that they are on some fast servers, not the $6.95/month shared host places that will run OSCommerce just fine . When you look on the Magento forum and go to the sites people put up for comments, you see how slow and draggy they are. A slow site loses customers. If you are really knowledgeable, willing to super tune Magento and pay serious money for a dedicated server, you might get Magento to run about as fast as OScommerce.
If you are starting out new, get version v3.0 Alpha. I say that for one big, major reason. It is table-less, and you can use CSS to design it. I can't speak to any other feature of v3.0, because I have next to no experience in it. I am pretty much stuck with v2.2 because I have spent the last 6 years modifying it, but it works just fine. I have however, stripped out all the tables, and it has made a world of difference in how I can design the website.
Oscommerce site:
OSC to CSS, http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/7263 -Bulk Mail Engine, http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/6553
OSC to CSS, http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/7263 -Bulk Mail Engine, http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/6553
#4
Posted 22 November 2009, 04:28
danthman, on 22 November 2009, 03:57, said:
If V3.0 is tableless, what happens to all the mods that were designed for the other table versions? Are they incompatable with v3.0 and now obsolete?
It is not just tables, the whole set-up is different, programming and file structure as well. The issue about mods not working is a problem. I would love to use the new version, but I can't because all the mods and contributions I use and need on my site, will not transfer over. In the end it was easier, even thought it took me weeks to do it, to just go through 2.2 page by page and replace the tables with CSS friendly div and such. It was also 'easier' to step back and spend some serious time and effort to learn more php and CSS and apply it to my existing OSC cart than to start over fresh on a monster like Magento. You can see what an OSC cart sans table looks like here
http://www.niora.com
Oscommerce site:
OSC to CSS, http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/7263 -Bulk Mail Engine, http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/6553
OSC to CSS, http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/7263 -Bulk Mail Engine, http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/6553
#5
Posted 22 November 2009, 17:00
One other "gotcha" on Magento is that it needs InnoDB database engine (under MySQL). Many shared servers come with "MyISAM" database engine, so be sure to check if your host can support this or if you're going to have to upgrade to a VPS or dedicated server. Also check if Magento has dropped this requirement recently (I heard rumor they might).
There's been a discussion going on: http://forums.oscommerce.com/topic/348228-any-thoughts-in-making-oscommerce-tableless/ about modifying osC 2.2 to make a tableless layout. It's a major undertaking and will break a number of mods, but it might be a less painful migration than going to v 3.0's whole new architecture. In the long run, it would be best to go to 3.0 and bring the mods along. It may take a concerted effort to prod mod owners into updating them, and finding people to adopt unsupported mods and update them, but it could be done.
There's been a discussion going on: http://forums.oscommerce.com/topic/348228-any-thoughts-in-making-oscommerce-tableless/ about modifying osC 2.2 to make a tableless layout. It's a major undertaking and will break a number of mods, but it might be a less painful migration than going to v 3.0's whole new architecture. In the long run, it would be best to go to 3.0 and bring the mods along. It may take a concerted effort to prod mod owners into updating them, and finding people to adopt unsupported mods and update them, but it could be done.
#6
Posted 22 November 2009, 17:10
danthman, on 22 November 2009, 03:57, said:
If V3.0 is tableless, what happens to all the mods that were designed for the other table versions? Are they incompatable with v3.0 and now obsolete?
Not only UI oriented mods which reference 2.2 tables, but most other mods will need recoding in 3.0. It will take a while before there's a critical mass of mods (but I've done mine!).
Contributions: Better Together and Quantity Discounts , for osCommerce 2.2, 2.3.1 and 3.0. See my profile for more details.
#7
Posted 22 November 2009, 18:22
swguy, on 22 November 2009, 17:10, said:
Not only UI oriented mods which reference 2.2 tables, but most other mods will need recoding in 3.0. It will take a while before there's a critical mass of mods (but I've done mine!).
In my case, I'm better at CSS by far than php. Making 2.2 tableless was a matter of doing the same operation over and over, whereas moving to 3.0 would involve knowing the php of every mod well enough and the structure of 3.0 well enough to recode those mods. To make matters worse, I'm starting out with CRE Loaded which has a ton of mods installed by someone else other than me. In other words I don't even know where my standard 2.2 code ends and my mods start, or even for sure how many mods I have installed.
My 2.2 works well and I really use the extras installed on it, but if there were compelling reasons, real advantages to being in 3.0 over 2.2, other than the CSS issues, I'm just not familiar enough with 3.0 to know what they would be.
Oscommerce site:
OSC to CSS, http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/7263 -Bulk Mail Engine, http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/6553
OSC to CSS, http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/7263 -Bulk Mail Engine, http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/6553
#8
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Posted 22 November 2009, 19:12
Yup I've looked long and hard at Magento, it seems to me to be a large SME+ grade product looking for initial fame and market penetration via "free software" .. very clever actually.
As previously mentioned it doesn't have a hope of working at anything like a satisfactory speed unless on a relatively powerful VPS or dedicated server. Even on a powerful VPS it was sort of snappy but not what you could call quick.
As few are familiar with Zend Framework let alone their implementation of Magento USING Zend Framework, users who stick with it are going to be shelling out a lot of money for mods/support/upgrades etc etc. which is of course another fantastic way to make money.
I say again .. very clever.
As previously mentioned it doesn't have a hope of working at anything like a satisfactory speed unless on a relatively powerful VPS or dedicated server. Even on a powerful VPS it was sort of snappy but not what you could call quick.
As few are familiar with Zend Framework let alone their implementation of Magento USING Zend Framework, users who stick with it are going to be shelling out a lot of money for mods/support/upgrades etc etc. which is of course another fantastic way to make money.
I say again .. very clever.
Edited by FWR Media, 22 November 2009, 19:14.
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#9
Posted 24 November 2009, 00:03
FWR Media, on 22 November 2009, 19:12, said:
Yup I've looked long and hard at Magento, it seems to me to be a large SME+ grade product looking for initial fame and market penetration via "free software" .. very clever actually.
As previously mentioned it doesn't have a hope of working at anything like a satisfactory speed unless on a relatively powerful VPS or dedicated server. Even on a powerful VPS it was sort of snappy but not what you could call quick.
As few are familiar with Zend Framework let alone their implementation of Magento USING Zend Framework, users who stick with it are going to be shelling out a lot of money for mods/support/upgrades etc etc. which is of course another fantastic way to make money.
I say again .. very clever.
As previously mentioned it doesn't have a hope of working at anything like a satisfactory speed unless on a relatively powerful VPS or dedicated server. Even on a powerful VPS it was sort of snappy but not what you could call quick.
As few are familiar with Zend Framework let alone their implementation of Magento USING Zend Framework, users who stick with it are going to be shelling out a lot of money for mods/support/upgrades etc etc. which is of course another fantastic way to make money.
I say again .. very clever.
#10
Posted 24 November 2009, 00:22
Thanks guys for all your comments. I think the last comment by FWR Media has hit the nail on the head. Magento is a commercial firm who tempt in newbies with the "free 'OS' software". The fact that I couldn't get a price for anything on their site made me highly suspicious and the fact that they want to 'quote you' leads me to believe in the end I would be spending shed loads of cash on the software or a VPS or dedicated server. I also think there is a fair bit of mis representation going on in other forums, Although you can't prove it, I think I could smell a rat (or unfair bias) in some posts I read.
Also we all know speed is everything and the showcase sites on osCommerce home page have some good examples.
I only have a small toy manufacturing, import and distribution business and believe me business has been tough since the recession so not wasting money is the name of the game. From your posts and the other research I've done it's clear that v3 Alpha is the way forward for me so over the next months you might see and offering at www.syoT.com
Also we all know speed is everything and the showcase sites on osCommerce home page have some good examples.
I only have a small toy manufacturing, import and distribution business and believe me business has been tough since the recession so not wasting money is the name of the game. From your posts and the other research I've done it's clear that v3 Alpha is the way forward for me so over the next months you might see and offering at www.syoT.com
#11
Posted 24 November 2009, 02:05
Speaking of showcasing osCommerce, has anyone verified (and corrected) the information on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_shopping_cart_software ? It may be fairly accurate for the base product, but there are probably a lot of "No" entries that could turn into "Yes - free Add-on".
Rather than a free-for-all of everyone changing it, and provoking the wrath of the Wiki gods, how about we propose changes in one place (say, here?), and periodically I (or some volunteer) can update the entry once we agree on what needs changing. This should pertain to 2.2 RC2a base, and optional add-ons. It's too early to revise it for version 3.0.
Is there anywhere on this forum that this discussion is already going on? Do we need a copy of the features here, or can everyone just go to the Wikipedia entry?
And please leave the entries for other products alone. It's not our business to be "correcting" them.
Rather than a free-for-all of everyone changing it, and provoking the wrath of the Wiki gods, how about we propose changes in one place (say, here?), and periodically I (or some volunteer) can update the entry once we agree on what needs changing. This should pertain to 2.2 RC2a base, and optional add-ons. It's too early to revise it for version 3.0.
Is there anywhere on this forum that this discussion is already going on? Do we need a copy of the features here, or can everyone just go to the Wikipedia entry?
And please leave the entries for other products alone. It's not our business to be "correcting" them.
