79 replies to this topic

[lindsayanng]

I have pretty much stripped all of the major tables out of one of my oscommerce installs and i am TRYING to make an install that is completely tableless (except for places where it is ok to have them)

I was wondering if anyone else had done this, and if they did - where is the site? I'd like to see and compare.

Also, is there a possibility that an update will yield a tableless structure? Its the nature of web developement, and tables are not technically the ideal way to structure a website. I mean, when i look at the code base for osc, there are an infinite number of tables within tables within tables. It would really simplify things to have them in divs and other CSS elements.

[MrPhil]

I seem to recall looking at the "roadmap" for version 3 and seeing that it will have tableless page layout. You might look and see if I remembered correctly.

I would not expect that the developers will put any effort into making version 2.2 tableless. That version seems to be pretty much dead in the water. I would not see any point in you editing your code to make it tableless layout, unless you were either planning to fork osC or to stay on 2.2 for a very long time. In either case, you might be doing enough future code/layout development to make the effort worthwhile.

[lindsayanng]

well thats the thing.. And entirely tableless layout will only work if people who design addons update theirs to work with the new update.. but it would DEFINITELY be worth it because in no time, oscommerce will be considered pretty useless if it continues to stay on a table layout. Its really not ideal for development.

it doesn't need to be a fork to be the same exact code base but tableless. It just would require a large undertaking and like i said, the addon developers would need to work it into the upgrade.. but then again, people need to update their addons anyways to work with any major upgrades to osc.

[JR Sales Company]

If you ask me, getting rid of the tables would be great for SEO since the bots don't particularly love them. Would definitely make customizations easier!

Edited by JR Sales Company, 04 November 2009, 20:27.

[MrPhil]

Well, it would be a code fork, as I seriously doubt that Harald & company would be interested in folding in such large changes into the 2.2 stream (which is basically dead). With or without the blessings of the osC developers (so long as you stay within the license terms), you ought to start up a separate project, under a new name. If not, perhaps they would be willing to host a third branch of osC: 2.2, 2.3 (your revision), and 3.0, if they did not have to maintain and enhance it? I would suggest that while you are removing the tables, you should also go ahead and 1) pull out the common PHP layout code (header, footer, etc.) into include files, so that each page's file can be greatly simplified, and 2) structure layout-related file references to use a Theme name or number to facilitate switching among themes (even on the fly, as with multiple departments within a store). I've done quite a bit of that, along with cleaning up the database queries, fixing a number of minor bugs, putting in the MySQL 5 fixes, and replacing the deprecated ereg functions. I haven't yet cleanly separated calculations (into modules) from display layout, to make templating easier, but maybe you've addressed that? Ideally, the store engine and shopping cart would be separated out from display so that cart functions could be integrated into an existing site (along the lines of PayPal "Buy Now" buttons).

Right now I've set it aside as I mull over how to do a lot of things that osC doesn't make easy. For example, I need to charge different tax rates (in New York) for different kinds of merchandise, as well as having different tax rates for different tax jurisdictions (destination based). There are many things that other store owners on this forum have asked for (e.g., display a price with or without VAT depending on customer's country) that are difficult with the database-driven structure of osC. It may be as simple as allowing custom plug-in PHP modules to override the database-driven prices, taxes, and shipping charges, but I haven't had the time to look at it (too busy with my real job). Some things, like newsletters, shouldn't even be part of osC -- just export the email address list to another utility. Product entry and updates should be all CSV tables (or maybe XML), rather than all through forms, and sales data should be exportable (CSV files) to accounting programs or spreadsheets. Customer sign-in should be such that osC can be integrated into a larger site with a single ID and sign on, so a visitor could sign on upon entering my forum, pop over to the store, jump back to the forum, and return to the store all without losing the shopping cart contents or having to sign on multiple times.

I've got lots of ideas for what should be in a store, so PM me if you want to take the discussion off line.

[npn2531]

lindsayanng, on 04 November 2009, 17:12, said:

I have pretty much stripped all of the major tables out of one of my oscommerce installs and i am TRYING to make an install that is completely tableless (except for places where it is ok to have them)

I was wondering if anyone else had done this, and if they did - where is the site? I'd like to see and compare.

Also, is there a possibility that an update will yield a tableless structure? Its the nature of web developement, and tables are not technically the ideal way to structure a website. I mean, when i look at the code base for osc, there are an infinite number of tables within tables within tables. It would really simplify things to have them in divs and other CSS elements.

Take a look at my site here <A href="http://www.niora.com">www.niora.com</a>. I have stripped out the tables on most pages, still a few more to go. I started doing this for three reasons 1) so I could use CSS to make more a professional design and to make those changes efficiently, 2) for SEO , and 3) There is no way I am going to be able to switch versions to the new OSCommerce anytime soon, I just have way to much stuff added to my shop and it works just fine like it is.

It was not a difficult process, and really did not take much time. The tricky part was getting the basic layout set up. Many of the pages I simply went through and blindly deleted tables, and then went back in with div tags.

What was neat was that typically once I got the tables out, and div tags in, pages were smaller. It is just so much easier to make design changes.

Edited by npn2531, 04 November 2009, 23:21.

[lindsayanng]

Its sad to think that oscommerce will never evolve like this. I mean, a real upgrade is a large undertaking, whether or not you change the overall structure. And honestly, if you wanted to keep the backend tables, i wouldn't care as much.. but the front end really needs to be tableless in order to keep up.

It would be amazingly nice to have a template ready structure similar to what wordpress has. The ability to just click "activate" on themes and plugins and have them work would turn oscommerce into an unstoppable open source shopping cart. BUt that is not even what I am asking for. What I am asking for is the ability to design the front end in only css and remove the tables where ever they are not needed.

I am not really interested in creating a new fork unless i had a LOAD of help and more interest than just two of us.
I will definitely be interested in trading notes and maybe working on something with you... I definitely want to do some more research to see if MAYBE someone did this already.. maybe there is some little known fork out there..

npn - you aren't kidding about div's being easier to work with when changing looks!! With tables, if you want to move an element, you have a HUGE task ahead of you!! I did SOME movement from tables to divs in my photography website to create the basic structure, but i have a LOAD more to do within the categories and the products listing pages.

Have you ever looked at osc in firebug? you can open up 10+ tables until you get to the actual element you are looking for!!!!
Maybe we can all share notes and see where it lands us.

Edited by lindsayanng, 04 November 2009, 23:36.

[spooks]

I think its been done already, google oscss. [img]http://forums.oscommerce.com/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]

[lindsayanng]

I ggoogled osc tableless but didn't find anything COMPELTE..

Off to google

[spooks]

No, the package is called oscss

[lindsayanng]

that looks exactly like what we are talking about.. but it's in a different language.. I am using google translator, but its not perfect.. maybe someone can help move that over to english as well

[spooks]

lindsayanng, on 04 November 2009, 23:45, said:

that looks exactly like what we are talking about.. but it's in a different language.. I am using google translator, but its not perfect.. maybe someone can help move that over to english as well

We were crossing posts!! [img]http://forums.oscommerce.com/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif[/img]

It would'nt be too dificult, I speak a smattering & there are some french here, but their terms need to be checked out.

[npn2531]

lindsayanng, on 04 November 2009, 23:43, said:

I ggoogled osc tableless but didn't find anything COMPELTE..

Off to google

Sam, you're right, It's here:
http://www.oscss.org/

I hope you speak french

Edited by npn2531, 04 November 2009, 23:57.

[npn2531]

lindsayanng, on 04 November 2009, 23:26, said:

Its sad to think that oscommerce will never evolve like this. I mean, a real upgrade is a large undertaking, whether or not you change the overall structure. And honestly, if you wanted to keep the backend tables, i wouldn't care as much.. but the front end really needs to be tableless in order to keep up.

It would be amazingly nice to have a template ready structure similar to what wordpress has. The ability to just click "activate" on themes and plugins and have them work would turn oscommerce into an unstoppable open source shopping cart. BUt that is not even what I am asking for. What I am asking for is the ability to design the front end in only css and remove the tables where ever they are not needed.

I am not really interested in creating a new fork unless i had a LOAD of help and more interest than just two of us.
I will definitely be interested in trading notes and maybe working on something with you... I definitely want to do some more research to see if MAYBE someone did this already.. maybe there is some little known fork out there..

npn - you aren't kidding about div's being easier to work with when changing looks!! With tables, if you want to move an element, you have a HUGE task ahead of you!! I did SOME movement from tables to divs in my photography website to create the basic structure, but i have a LOAD more to do within the categories and the products listing pages.

Have you ever looked at osc in firebug? you can open up 10+ tables until you get to the actual element you are looking for!!!!
Maybe we can all share notes and see where it lands us.

I'm not familiar with firebug, but if you add some simple code to your stylesheet, I forgot what it is, something like td.{border:1px dotted #red}, it will put a red dotted border around ALL the cells, the same works for TR and TABLE. You'll see just how nested the tables are in OSC.

It took me about 3 weeks to strip out tables in my website that works for my purposes, it would probably take me months and months (if I ever could) to create a table-less template for OSCommerce that would work for everyone else. I would be happy to share what I have though.

[lindsayanng]

so do you think we can make this a combined project to come out with a tableless front end that people can use in place of the default one?

I dont need to see outlined tabels to know how bad it is. Firebug is an extention to firefox that lets you see the source code.. its REALLY bad when you put it into perspective.. REALLY bad

[npn2531]

lindsayanng, on 05 November 2009, 00:39, said:

so do you think we can make this a combined project to come out with a tableless front end that people can use in place of the default one?

I dont need to see outlined tabels to know how bad it is. Firebug is an extention to firefox that lets you see the source code.. its REALLY bad when you put it into perspective.. REALLY bad

It would be a huge undertaking. One of the reasons it was feasible for me to do it on my cart was that I only need it to work for me. For example, my CSS layout is simple fixed two column layout with a header and footer, I have no right sidebar. To be useful to the community at large, you would need to create a template or system that allowed users to have options to change that layout as needed. I created my layout in a couple of days. But to make it a flexible layout with a good user interface any OSCommerce shop could take off the shelf and use, would take months. (I say months, because I have no idea how long it would take). And that would be before you even got started on the all the other pages.

To make matters worse, I started with a 4 year old version of CRE loaded.

It is tempting, though to consider doing it, but I'm an amateur, and spend most of my time trying to sell stuff on my shopping cart.

[lindsayanng]

Yes, but generally milestones reached within upgrades of an existing codebase SHOULD be large undertakings. That is why they generally take a long time to come to life.. Obviously it is not something that one person can do in a matter of weeks.. But none the less, oscommerce will likely fall off the face of the earth if things arent brought up to speed with new technology. Tables are not meant for content the way that oscommerce uses them - yes it works.. but no, it is not ideal.

I dont nessecarily thing that there needs to be a quick easy way to switch from 2 columns to 3.. Right now as osc stands, it is 3 columns and its not SUPER easy to remove the other column unless you know coding. if you had a 3 column layout using divs, it would probably be the same amount of work to remove a column (or add a column) as with tables - but the INNER content will be SOO much easier to move and adjust and change.. and that is where the change really is important.

Redesigning the product layouts and epsecially the product info pages would make a world of difference.. then once there is a complete tableless design, people can start working on a plugin system and theming system similar to that of wordpress where it is a one click install type of deal.

[npn2531]

lindsayanng, on 05 November 2009, 02:30, said:

Yes, but generally milestones reached within upgrades of an existing codebase SHOULD be large undertakings. That is why they generally take a long time to come to life.. Obviously it is not something that one person can do in a matter of weeks.. But none the less, oscommerce will likely fall off the face of the earth if things arent brought up to speed with new technology. Tables are not meant for content the way that oscommerce uses them - yes it works.. but no, it is not ideal.

I dont nessecarily thing that there needs to be a quick easy way to switch from 2 columns to 3.. Right now as osc stands, it is 3 columns and its not SUPER easy to remove the other column unless you know coding. if you had a 3 column layout using divs, it would probably be the same amount of work to remove a column (or add a column) as with tables - but the INNER content will be SOO much easier to move and adjust and change.. and that is where the change really is important.

Redesigning the product layouts and epsecially the product info pages would make a world of difference.. then once there is a complete tableless design, people can start working on a plugin system and theming system similar to that of wordpress where it is a one click install type of deal.

Here is essentially what I have done, but with all the programming removed:
Below is my index page with the relevant stylesheet elements


Stylesheet elements:
body {margin-left: 25px;margin-top:20px;padding: 0px;text-align: left;width:1000px;min-width: 760px;}
#Header {position: absolute;top: 10;left: 24;width: 900px;border-bottom:0px solid #ccc;}
#pageContent {float: right;width: 700px;border-width: 0px;border-color: #ccc;border-style: solid;}
#page {float: left;width: 900px;margin: 110px 0 10px 0;}
#pageColumnLeft {float: left;width: 190px;padding-left: 5px;border-width: 0px;border-color: #blue;border-style: solid;}
#Footer {clear: both;text-align: center;padding: 0px;border-top:1px solid #ccc;width:900px;}


my Index page:
<body>

<div id="Header">
<?php require(DIR_WS_INCLUDES . 'header.php'); ?>
</div>


<div id="page">
<div id="pageColumnLeft">
<?php require(DIR_WS_INCLUDES . FILENAME_COLUMN_LEFT); ?>
</div>

<div id="pageContent">
<?php require(DIR_WS_INCLUDES . FILENAME_CONTENT); ?>
</div>
</div>
<div id="Footer">
<?php require(DIR_WS_INCLUDES .FILENAME_FOOTER); ?>


</div>

</body>


Note: I create a new file called 'content'. It is the index file stripped of everything that doesn't go in the header, footer, or left or right columns, and all the metadata. In my CRe Loaded the programming it is the index file (actually the 'mainpage') that calls all the other pages as they are requested. I don't remember if the index page on a stock OSC has the programming to call the pages.

Edited by npn2531, 05 November 2009, 03:20.

[lindsayanng]

yea.. well, what you are giving us isn't much more than a basic CSS layout. Hate to say this but it doesn't reallyhelp all that much. The hard part is pulling out the intricate tables and making them work structurally within the new divs.

For instance the box classes - they are horrendous. To strip ALL of the tables and then reclass the boxes will be a HUGE undertaking.

The overall structure is easy.. I did what you did as well to my website, but it is VERY VERY far from tableless

[lindsayanng]

yea.. i just had a better look at your website.. You dont have a tableless design.. You have a div structure on the home page, but everything within your content is all table based.

Also, on a side note, your div structure is not ideal.. you don't have a containing div, which will give you a LOT more reliable positioning.. instead you just have a few divs stacked on top of each other and nothing to keep them in place