Hi all,
I wonder if anyone in the know can give so advice/opinion here.
I am based in the UK.
I recently received an order for a small item worth just under £300, I sent the item to the customers billing address (as requested) via royal mail special delivery (next day by 1PM)
A couple of days later roay mails website was showing the item as delivered as it should have been on the day following despatch.
About 1 and a half weeks later i get a e mail from the customer saying the item has not arrived and he was not on holiday and has had to purchase the item out there.
He has now returned and has sent another e mail stating the item has still not arrived and there has been no "we missed you while you were out" card left at any time.
Where do i stand on this, the customer is claiming that he has not received what he has paid for, my carriers are saying it was delivered the following day as it should have been and therefore i can not claim for non delivery or loss. They say it would not have been delivered to any other address other than the one the packet was addressed to as per their terms and conditions.
I seem surprised as i have never had any problem with royal mail special delivery ever beofre, also i find it a bit strange that the customer was not in contact before he went on his holiday as if i needed a item that i specifically ordered to take with me, i would have been in contact to the supplying firm before i went!!
Two other small points, the customer requested and paid for standard parcel delivery - i upgraded the delivery service to special due to the value of the order for both our protection (special delivery has enhanced compensation for loss etc and better tracking). The name that signed for the parcel is not his (royal mail say they deliver to the address not the individual)
I would welcome comments on where i stand with this legally etc and what my best course of action may be.
many thanks
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24 replies to this topic
#2
Posted 06 February 2008, 00:15
If they delivered to someone else in a block of flats within a building and not to his specific flat then you should claim against Royal Mail.
If Royal Mail says that they delivered to his specific address and that someone within his address signed for it then the responsibility goes back to the customer, and you can advise the customer (if you wish) to raise the loss of the item with the Police as stolen goods.
Vger
If Royal Mail says that they delivered to his specific address and that someone within his address signed for it then the responsibility goes back to the customer, and you can advise the customer (if you wish) to raise the loss of the item with the Police as stolen goods.
Vger
#3
Posted 06 February 2008, 12:38
Vger, on Feb 6 2008, 12:15 AM, said:
If they delivered to someone else in a block of flats within a building and not to his specific flat then you should claim against Royal Mail.
If Royal Mail says that they delivered to his specific address and that someone within his address signed for it then the responsibility goes back to the customer, and you can advise the customer (if you wish) to raise the loss of the item with the Police as stolen goods.
Vger
If Royal Mail says that they delivered to his specific address and that someone within his address signed for it then the responsibility goes back to the customer, and you can advise the customer (if you wish) to raise the loss of the item with the Police as stolen goods.
Vger
Many thanks Vger - I think the problem I will have will be the diferance of opinion. Royal mail say it went to the address as it should have. Our customer is saying he has no idea of who the person that signed for it is. If it did indeed go to the correct house I would have thought our customer whould have known who signed for it.
I cant really afford to resend and forgo the cost of the parcel as goodwill - but if i dont i could be on the end of a lot of bad will from the customer.
Or the customer could just be trying it on?
thanks again for your input/advice
anthony
#5
Posted 06 February 2008, 20:36
Vger, on Feb 6 2008, 01:29 PM, said:
Yes, the customer could be trying it on.
As for bad will from a customer who's not going to order from you again anyway - I'd live with that and keep the money.
Vger
As for bad will from a customer who's not going to order from you again anyway - I'd live with that and keep the money.
Vger
True
many thanks for your input into this vger
#6
Posted 06 February 2008, 23:16
IANAL
I would scan your half of Special Delivery slip and email it to the buyer along with the url of the track and trace website, so they can see for themselves.
What date did they place the order and what day was it signed for?
I would then tell them to report it stolen to the police as you have done all you reasonably can.
Normally customers state if they need an order for a specific date because under the distance selling regulations you have up to 28 days to ship the goods.
Why not call postwatch on 08456 013265?
Simon
I would scan your half of Special Delivery slip and email it to the buyer along with the url of the track and trace website, so they can see for themselves.
What date did they place the order and what day was it signed for?
I would then tell them to report it stolen to the police as you have done all you reasonably can.
Normally customers state if they need an order for a specific date because under the distance selling regulations you have up to 28 days to ship the goods.
Why not call postwatch on 08456 013265?
Simon
#7
Posted 07 February 2008, 13:53
cbx040, on Feb 6 2008, 11:16 PM, said:
IANAL
I would scan your half of Special Delivery slip and email it to the buyer along with the url of the track and trace website, so they can see for themselves.
What date did they place the order and what day was it signed for?
I would then tell them to report it stolen to the police as you have done all you reasonably can.
Normally customers state if they need an order for a specific date because under the distance selling regulations you have up to 28 days to ship the goods.
Why not call postwatch on 08456 013265?
Simon
I would scan your half of Special Delivery slip and email it to the buyer along with the url of the track and trace website, so they can see for themselves.
What date did they place the order and what day was it signed for?
I would then tell them to report it stolen to the police as you have done all you reasonably can.
Normally customers state if they need an order for a specific date because under the distance selling regulations you have up to 28 days to ship the goods.
Why not call postwatch on 08456 013265?
Simon
The order was placed on a saturday, I despatched on the tuesday for a guarenteed wednesday delivery.
My customer is "looking into it" ie checking with neighboroughs etc at the moment. I really if I can avoid it dont want to have to take the "ive done my bit by posing it" stance - but with royal mail saying it has been delivered there is not a lot else i can do? - if it was me the first person i would grab would be my postman! , though saying that I guess not everyone always has the same one day to day, but round my way they are fairly regular.
I will keep the thread posted as to what unfolds here in the case it is of any help to any one in the future.
#8
Posted 08 February 2008, 03:02
yubnub, on Feb 7 2008, 01:53 PM, said:
Hi,
The order was placed on a saturday, I despatched on the tuesday for a guarenteed wednesday delivery.
My customer is "looking into it" ie checking with neighboroughs etc at the moment. I really if I can avoid it dont want to have to take the "ive done my bit by posing it" stance - but with royal mail saying it has been delivered there is not a lot else i can do? - if it was me the first person i would grab would be my postman! , though saying that I guess not everyone always has the same one day to day, but round my way they are fairly regular.
I will keep the thread posted as to what unfolds here in the case it is of any help to any one in the future.
The order was placed on a saturday, I despatched on the tuesday for a guarenteed wednesday delivery.
My customer is "looking into it" ie checking with neighboroughs etc at the moment. I really if I can avoid it dont want to have to take the "ive done my bit by posing it" stance - but with royal mail saying it has been delivered there is not a lot else i can do? - if it was me the first person i would grab would be my postman! , though saying that I guess not everyone always has the same one day to day, but round my way they are fairly regular.
I will keep the thread posted as to what unfolds here in the case it is of any help to any one in the future.
request the signed slip and ask RM if it was to the address on package.
#9
Posted 09 February 2008, 22:51
none_uk, on Feb 8 2008, 03:02 AM, said:
request the signed slip and ask RM if it was to the address on package.
hi,
I have a copy of the signature that signed for the packet as royal mail put them online now. They also say it would have only been delivered to the intended address.
#10
Posted 18 February 2008, 13:51
If it took the customer a week and a half to contact you about a non-delivery of a £300 item , i'd be inclined not to beleive him/her. If it was me , i'd have contacted you in a few days. I have the following info on my shipping.php re signatures and address.
"Delivery Address
You must ensure the address and postcode entered during checkout is correct , further delivery costs will be incurred if the address supplied is in-correct and the delivery cannot be completed. Items returned to us as "un-deliverable" by our couriers will not be re-dispatched until extra postage costs have been paid in full. It is the buyers responsibility to provide an address suitable for delivery where the item can be checked and signed for. A signature given at the address supplied by the buyer will be taken as proof of delivery. You should ensure that the item can be succesfully delivered and signed for at the address you have supplied. "
"Delivery Address
You must ensure the address and postcode entered during checkout is correct , further delivery costs will be incurred if the address supplied is in-correct and the delivery cannot be completed. Items returned to us as "un-deliverable" by our couriers will not be re-dispatched until extra postage costs have been paid in full. It is the buyers responsibility to provide an address suitable for delivery where the item can be checked and signed for. A signature given at the address supplied by the buyer will be taken as proof of delivery. You should ensure that the item can be succesfully delivered and signed for at the address you have supplied. "
#11
Posted 18 February 2008, 15:41
andytc, on Feb 18 2008, 01:51 PM, said:
If it took the customer a week and a half to contact you about a non-delivery of a £300 item , i'd be inclined not to beleive him/her. If it was me , i'd have contacted you in a few days. I have the following info on my shipping.php re signatures and address.
"Delivery Address
You must ensure the address and postcode entered during checkout is correct , further delivery costs will be incurred if the address supplied is in-correct and the delivery cannot be completed. Items returned to us as "un-deliverable" by our couriers will not be re-dispatched until extra postage costs have been paid in full. It is the buyers responsibility to provide an address suitable for delivery where the item can be checked and signed for. A signature given at the address supplied by the buyer will be taken as proof of delivery. You should ensure that the item can be succesfully delivered and signed for at the address you have supplied. "
"Delivery Address
You must ensure the address and postcode entered during checkout is correct , further delivery costs will be incurred if the address supplied is in-correct and the delivery cannot be completed. Items returned to us as "un-deliverable" by our couriers will not be re-dispatched until extra postage costs have been paid in full. It is the buyers responsibility to provide an address suitable for delivery where the item can be checked and signed for. A signature given at the address supplied by the buyer will be taken as proof of delivery. You should ensure that the item can be succesfully delivered and signed for at the address you have supplied. "
Hi, I will add something simular to my shipping.php also.
I personally am very unsure of the whole thing. Like you say it was a long time before contact about the missing parcel, also he stated he wanted the item for a holiday, if it was me i would have been chasing it before i went away, not after i had gone!
Now he claims he has not been receiving some of my e mails I have sent him regarding this!
Oh well, will wait and see what happens!
#12
Posted 18 February 2008, 18:03
yubnub, on Feb 18 2008, 03:41 PM, said:
Now he claims he has not been receiving some of my e mails I have sent him regarding this!
Oh well, will wait and see what happens!
Oh well, will wait and see what happens!
We're having a lot of problems with missing emails , especially btopenworld users , something to do with greylisting i've been told.
I'd take it all the way , you have proof of delivery.
#13
Posted 18 February 2008, 19:10
Yes, this BT "greylisting" is a problem. The way around it is to set up an SPF record for your domain on the server. See here for details:
http://www.openspf.org/
Vger
http://www.openspf.org/
Vger
#14
Posted 20 February 2008, 13:49
Vger, on Feb 18 2008, 07:10 PM, said:
Yes, this BT "greylisting" is a problem. The way around it is to set up an SPF record for your domain on the server. See here for details:
http://www.openspf.org/
Vger
http://www.openspf.org/
Vger
Thanks Vger , i will implement that on our server today and see what happens.
#15
Posted 21 February 2008, 13:57
andytc, on Feb 18 2008, 01:51 PM, said:
If it took the customer a week and a half to contact you about a non-delivery of a £300 item , i'd be inclined not to beleive him/her. If it was me , i'd have contacted you in a few days. I have the following info on my shipping.php re signatures and address.
"Delivery Address
You must ensure the address and postcode entered during checkout is correct , further delivery costs will be incurred if the address supplied is in-correct and the delivery cannot be completed. Items returned to us as "un-deliverable" by our couriers will not be re-dispatched until extra postage costs have been paid in full. It is the buyers responsibility to provide an address suitable for delivery where the item can be checked and signed for. A signature given at the address supplied by the buyer will be taken as proof of delivery. You should ensure that the item can be succesfully delivered and signed for at the address you have supplied. "
"Delivery Address
You must ensure the address and postcode entered during checkout is correct , further delivery costs will be incurred if the address supplied is in-correct and the delivery cannot be completed. Items returned to us as "un-deliverable" by our couriers will not be re-dispatched until extra postage costs have been paid in full. It is the buyers responsibility to provide an address suitable for delivery where the item can be checked and signed for. A signature given at the address supplied by the buyer will be taken as proof of delivery. You should ensure that the item can be succesfully delivered and signed for at the address you have supplied. "
hope you dont mind but i added this to my shipping.php
Thanks
Edited by none_uk, 21 February 2008, 13:57.
#16
Posted 21 February 2008, 19:32
We have been in your position many times, even with a proof of delivery signature that was one letter short on the Printed signature, customer was a con artist, we know he got the purchase, but argued he did not, He declined the payment through his issuing card company/our merchant account and that was it game over the retailer lost. Your out on a limb with no pin number. end off.
#18
Posted 28 March 2008, 16:52
very interested topic, as I had the same problem but in my case the client moved to different property after order of the products & forgot to mentioned to store. I my case I have solid TOC - if client by mistake provide the false/incorrect address, I can redeliver for additional cost to client or refund only the cost of goods.
I am also interested in your case.
Quote
Hi Anthony,
Did you manage to sort this out in the end?
Did you manage to sort this out in the end?
Please read this line: Do you want to find all the answers to your questions? click here. As for contribution database it's located here!
8 people out of 10 don't bother to read installation manuals. I can recommend: if you can't read the installation manual, don't bother to install any contribution yourself.
Before installing contribution or editing/updating/deleting any files, do the full backup, it will save to you & everyone here on the forum time to fix your issues.
Any issues with oscommerce, I am here to help you.
8 people out of 10 don't bother to read installation manuals. I can recommend: if you can't read the installation manual, don't bother to install any contribution yourself.
Before installing contribution or editing/updating/deleting any files, do the full backup, it will save to you & everyone here on the forum time to fix your issues.
Any issues with oscommerce, I am here to help you.
#19
Posted 23 April 2008, 20:35
Hi,
Sorry for the delay, Thought I better post an update.
When the customer started to say that he was not receiving my e mails I decided to print out the compete correspondance of our e mails and my replys and posted them to him, again via royal mail special delivery along with a covering letter explaining (to the point!) that I would not be refunding as the parcel had been delivered.
I have never heard from him or his card company since.
I suspect that when the parcel was delivered somebody with a diferent surname at the address signed for the item. Then whilst on holiday somebody said to him "if you didnt sign for it just say you never received it and they will have to refund you"
That is only my thoughts on what happened, the whole saga was a bit strange. Maybe if he had been in contact after a week to enquire where his parcel was I would be be more inclined to beleive him.
Not really an outcome, but thats how it seems to have been left,
regards,
anthony
Sorry for the delay, Thought I better post an update.
When the customer started to say that he was not receiving my e mails I decided to print out the compete correspondance of our e mails and my replys and posted them to him, again via royal mail special delivery along with a covering letter explaining (to the point!) that I would not be refunding as the parcel had been delivered.
I have never heard from him or his card company since.
I suspect that when the parcel was delivered somebody with a diferent surname at the address signed for the item. Then whilst on holiday somebody said to him "if you didnt sign for it just say you never received it and they will have to refund you"
That is only my thoughts on what happened, the whole saga was a bit strange. Maybe if he had been in contact after a week to enquire where his parcel was I would be be more inclined to beleive him.
Not really an outcome, but thats how it seems to have been left,
regards,
anthony
#20
Posted 03 May 2008, 02:58
I sympathize with your story, Anthony, and I'm glad the culprit has dried up and blown away (because you demonstrated that you were organized and not likely to cave in).
I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in Canada, a customer who orders with a credit card can have his money refunded into his card for pretty much any reason he cares to invent. In ten years of taking credit cards, we've never had anyone claim not to have made the order (which is where taking a P.I.N. comes in), but we have had a few incidents, like yours, of an individual saying he or she never received the goods. They need provide no proof to the credit card company - they just call them up, give the transaction reference number, and demand a refund. It then comes straight out of our bank account with no notice - possibly leaving us overdrawn and with extra service and bank fees.
We don't even receive a printed notice of the chargeback until three or four weeks later. The notice has scant information but includes the amount and the originating card number - sometimes a short description of the complaint, and the answer to one question: does the complainant assert that he or she contacted us themselves to try to resolve the issue? The answer on the slip, of course, is invariably "yes", but in reality no such complainant has ever contacted us - they simply call their credit card company and lie.
As far as I know, there is no possible protection from this except for expensive proof-of-delivery methods, but seeing as the credit card company pulls the money from our account as soon as a customer demands it, we would be fighting a rearguard action anyway. The customer has his money and runs, and it's impractical for us to pursue it.
Don't mean to sound cynical - in truth, it happens once in every few years, so we've taken no expensive measures to prevent it on most small items we ship.
The most recent example was a customer in Europe who made an order worth about $80, with $20 of postage. Many weeks later the package was was returned to us marked "Refused" (we had to pay another $20 in return postage to receive the item back). There had been no word from the customer at all, so we emailed him to say that we had his parcel back, and asked if the address was correct (although it was the address he had provided) - and asked if he would like it re-sent (with applicable postage if he had provided a faulty address)? No reply.
A few days subsequent to this, he demanded and received a refund from his credit card, and as an explanation he said that we had received his parcel back from the post office and now refused to deal with him.
So, he indeed received our e-mail, never replied, and used the information we gave him to craft his lie to his credit card company.
Well, poo. As I say, it seldom happens, but the biggest cost to us is that it is discouraging. Most people out there are honest, and we hate to be reminded that it's not everyone. (But remember, if most people were not honest, we would still be living in caves!
)
Needless to say, we do pay for proof of delivery for big-ticket items to folks we don't know.
I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in Canada, a customer who orders with a credit card can have his money refunded into his card for pretty much any reason he cares to invent. In ten years of taking credit cards, we've never had anyone claim not to have made the order (which is where taking a P.I.N. comes in), but we have had a few incidents, like yours, of an individual saying he or she never received the goods. They need provide no proof to the credit card company - they just call them up, give the transaction reference number, and demand a refund. It then comes straight out of our bank account with no notice - possibly leaving us overdrawn and with extra service and bank fees.
We don't even receive a printed notice of the chargeback until three or four weeks later. The notice has scant information but includes the amount and the originating card number - sometimes a short description of the complaint, and the answer to one question: does the complainant assert that he or she contacted us themselves to try to resolve the issue? The answer on the slip, of course, is invariably "yes", but in reality no such complainant has ever contacted us - they simply call their credit card company and lie.
As far as I know, there is no possible protection from this except for expensive proof-of-delivery methods, but seeing as the credit card company pulls the money from our account as soon as a customer demands it, we would be fighting a rearguard action anyway. The customer has his money and runs, and it's impractical for us to pursue it.
Don't mean to sound cynical - in truth, it happens once in every few years, so we've taken no expensive measures to prevent it on most small items we ship.
The most recent example was a customer in Europe who made an order worth about $80, with $20 of postage. Many weeks later the package was was returned to us marked "Refused" (we had to pay another $20 in return postage to receive the item back). There had been no word from the customer at all, so we emailed him to say that we had his parcel back, and asked if the address was correct (although it was the address he had provided) - and asked if he would like it re-sent (with applicable postage if he had provided a faulty address)? No reply.
A few days subsequent to this, he demanded and received a refund from his credit card, and as an explanation he said that we had received his parcel back from the post office and now refused to deal with him.
So, he indeed received our e-mail, never replied, and used the information we gave him to craft his lie to his credit card company.
Well, poo. As I say, it seldom happens, but the biggest cost to us is that it is discouraging. Most people out there are honest, and we hate to be reminded that it's not everyone. (But remember, if most people were not honest, we would still be living in caves!
)Needless to say, we do pay for proof of delivery for big-ticket items to folks we don't know.
