118 replies to this topic

[xaraya]

If you own or operate an e-commerce web site then you need to know that a company in San Diego, Pangea Intellectual Properties (PANIP LLC) is suing companies all across the country. They claim that if you use graphical and textural information on a video screen for purposes of making a sale, then you are infringing on their patent. US Patent No 5,576,951.

And if you accept information to conduct automatic financial transactions via a telephone line & video screen, you're infringing on their patent. US Patent No. 6,289,319

http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20...20021020S0002/1
http://slashdot.org/articles/02/10/22/0152...1.shtml?tid=155
http://www.youmaybenext.com

[addaction]

Just some laywers trying to make some money... it won't go anywhere

[xaraya]

For more information or to give our patent office a little constructive feedback please use the following ; )

http://www.uspto.gov/web/menu/feedback.html
http://www.uspto.gov/main/contacts.htm
webmaster@uspto.gov

General Information Services Division
U.S. Patent and Trademark Office
Crystal Plaza 3, Room 2C02
Washington, DC 20231

[jarmen]

It's simply sickening and disgusting to see such greed.

[mpdaddy]

I saw this on Tech TV a few days ago. This is not just some lawyers trying to make some money. These people did get approval for two patents and are suing over 50 companies so far. The first patent covers all types of e-commerce. The second covers transactions that are transmitted through a telephone line and a terminal screen (ATM machines). Everyone should check out http://www.youmaybenext.com for more information on this subject.

Regards
Wayne

[ocularmagic]

There was another thread about this somewhere in this forum. The same guy tried to sue American Airlines a few years ago for infringing on a patent he had that was on an automated reservation system or something to that effect. He lost and got a couple of the patents revoked. It seems he is just going after people with a smaller pocket book and no lawyers this time. I would imagine that if it goes to court it would turn out just like the last lawsuit based on prescedence.

[portalbid]

Thats just a bunch of BS. Reading that patent...that means that they could sue ANYONE selling on the internet...even eBay users..hehehe...i guess it kinda sux...

-Jeff

[xaraya]

What's even scarier is there are not a lot of people talking much about this or who seem to take it seriously... maybe it's shock accompanied by denial. I've made several posts on Google Groups at places like alt.ecommerce and alt.marketing.online .... until now there was no mention of this.

While PANIP continues to mow down small ecommerce sites it seems many businesses are under the impression it won't affect them... that it will propably be put to rest before it does... which it hopefully will.

For those who wish to do something now however, the PANIP defendants have listed the following phone numbers, email addresses and web sites to publicize this abuse. News groups certainly are very effective and should be used where it is appropriate to post. Try http://groups.google.com

USA Today
7950 Jones Branch Drive
McLean, VA 22108-0605
http://contact.usatoday.com/feedback/onlin...p?type=smallbiz

Wall Street Journal
Send an article to the Journal's Editorial page for consideration.
http://opinionjournal.com/guidelines

60 Minutes:
524 West 57th St.
New York, NY 10019
Phone: (212) 975-3247

20/20 - ABC News
http://www.abcnews.go.com/service/Help/abc...cmail_news.html

[sw45859]

if the courts see his patent as valid he can sue every company in the world, because they all use computers somewhere in their business, he supposedly has a patent on every type of automated system that is used in the world, answering services, retail computer automated systems, i mean come on, i wouldn't think that any court would stand by this especially since the patent is showed on the site i looked at as being filed 9/11/01. i just wanted to say my piece HE'S INSANE

[xaraya]

This is a post from http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&...biz.marketplace

PanIP isn't the only company attempting to extort money from small business web site owners. Divine, Inc. is doing the same thing by claiming they have the patent on shopping carts and real-time credit card processing. Here are a few links to further information:

Divine, Inc. is a public company traded on NASDAQ. It is amazing to me that they would risk their apparently legitimate business by engaging in petty extortion of small businesses.

PanIP started earlier, so their defendants have had more time to organize. The victims of Divine, Inc. have just begun.

In the short term, PanIP and Divine, Inc. need to be convinced to stop harassing small businesses. If that is not possible, then their patents need to be invalidated by the courts. The long term solution is to reform the practices of the U.S. Patent Office.

http://www.aful.org/wws/arc/patents/2002-1...0/msg00011.html
http://news.com.com/2010-1071-962485.html

- - - - - - - - - -

Divine's patents:

5,715,314 - Patent covering shopping carts that allow buyers to accumulate items before checking out of a Web storefront: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...4&RS=PN/5715314

5,724,424 - Patent covering secure, real-time payments using credit and debit cards over the Internet:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...4&RS=PN/5724424

5,708,780 - Patent covering session identifiers:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...0&RS=PN/5708780

5,909,492 - Patent covering more of the buyer/merchant interaction:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...2&RS=PN/5909492

- - - - - - - - - -

The letter recently sent by Divine's attorney:

October 22, 2002

Via Overnight Courier
Chief Executive Officer
(company name)
(company address)

Re: Notice of Patent Infringement

Dear Madam or Sir:

divine, inc. ("divine") owns a patent portfolio consisting of over thirty U.S. patents and an even greater number of foreign patents. In addition, divine has nearly one hundred patents pending. Several e-commerce patents are included in divine's portfolio, including those that had been issued to Open Market, Inc., a company acquired by divine on October 19, 2001.

The information and functionality contained on the website of (web site URL) indicates to us that your company is infringing on one or more of divine's patents, for example, U.S. Patent Nos. 5,715,314 and 5,909,492. These patents and their potency have been recognized in numerous articles, such as those enclosed herewith.

If you are interested in obtaining a license under these patents, please contact me. If you are not interested in obtaining a license, please confirm that your company has terminated its infringing activities and contact me so that we can discuss how to amicably redress the infringing activities that have occurred to date.

Regardless of whether or not you want to obtain a license to the patents, we require a response to this letter within seven days or we will assume you do not want to amicably resolve this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Very truly yours

Richard E. Nawracaj
Assistant General Council
divine, inc.

[sportsc4]

any idea of when they filed for the patent?

if it was recent (like 5 years recent) then there is a such thing as "prior art"

[marklbishop]

Wow. This is scary. This is from today's Chicago Tribune:

Quote

In Divine's emerging patent business, Filipowski said, revenues total about $2 million per quarter and are expected to grow to between $10 million and $20 million annually "as we enforce with more and more companies."

Internet retailers say they aren't sure about the validity of Divine's claims, but some are agreeing to pay royalties rather than risking costly litigation.

"We don't have the muscle or the dollars to deal with this," said EthnicGrocer.com founder Perry Singh, CEO of Chicago's TransEthnic Inc., which hasn't responded yet to Divine's patent suit.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi...Dbusiness%2Dhed

[xaraya]

There's also a thread that's been started at:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&...p=alt.ecommerce

Please post there too. It may help us get more answers about the legitimacy factor of PANIP and Divine, Inc. I believe someone has stated that the PANIP patent expired in July. Other people who seem to know about patent law have stated that these patents are too vague and could be challenged by businesses that had enough money to defend themselves.

If enough of these threads continue to grow over time someone with enough legal experience should be able to tell us how to avoid going to court over this. Ignorance of patent laws may be all that's giving Divine, Inc. and PANIP the power to extort money from small ecommerce business.

[xaraya]

Wow, I just got a very interesting private message from an oscomemrce community member who is very “disappointed” that I have brought up PANIP and Divine, Inc. to this forum. The individual is concerned that my postings may pull osCommerce offline?

One, PANIP and Divine, Inc. I don’t believe have any legal jurisdiction outside the USA. Harald Ponce de Leon has oscomemrce.com registered in Germany. I belive this is where he lives too. Two, it would be like one of these companies to spread fear about announcing their activities at forums and newsgroups like this I beleive.

Does anyone feel the same as the poster below? I’m keeping the poster anonymous out of respect. My response is included.

Gregory Remington
webmaster@mediatech.net


From Private Messaging:

Are you one of their lawyers?

Fact is: Now that you have informed the community about this stuff there is no legal way to assure that we were not aware of this.

Your postings can be used as a fine counter argument to all osCommerce users - they might even force us to take osCommerce offline.

Thanks. At least do we now know who is guilty if that happens.

Very angry, very upset and very disappointed.


My Response:

So we should remain ignorant and turn the other way while "others" are carted away to court? That's how the Nazis rose to power. No, I am not one of their lawyers. I am a concerned US citizen and ecommerce developer. Keep in mind that osCommerce is "open source" and is being developed by a community of "global" citizens... kinda hard to sue independent developers all over the world versus a commercial corporate entity located in the USA.

I don't believe PANIP or Devine have jurisdiction outside the states either. Therefore posting in this environment is by far safer and poses more of a threat to the "American" patent abusers than anything else I can think of.

Regards,
Gregory Remington

[Paul_C]

I think whoever pm'ed you is a little misguided. Saying "I didn't know about this" isn't going to help in court anyway.

This subject is an important one for all ecommerce developers and users. Personally, I appreciate the information that's been posted here about it and look forward to updates on the situation.

[beckysmith]

Quote

Fact is: Now that you have informed the community about this stuff there is no legal way to assure that we were not aware of this.

Load of baloney! It's all ready in the public domain. The world is full of lawyers as it is so let's skip the two-bit nickel ones too

xaraya: Thanks for the post - it's a very interesting read and poses a difficult problem for US-based E-commerce sites. There are always leeches trying to make easy money off stupid patents. And, no offence, the USA is the worst offending country for the most ridiculous awarded ones!

[bluephoenix]

The patent is too general and they know it. Otherwise, why go after small companies when there are companies like Dell, Staples, Amazon and many others using the sames technology.

Just think based on this, many software companies are infringing on them also as they are using multimedia sales presentations. All sales kiosks are infringing, and on and on.

Also, their patent is dependable on other patented products, I would like to see them get sued in return as I am sure they are infringing on others.

Patent infringement occur all the time and some of those people at the Paten Office really need to change profession.
For example, "one click" ordering is patented to Amazon, many thousands of sites now use something similar.

[zzfritz]

Of course we should remain informed of extortionate patent infringement litigation such as this, and not bury our heads in the sand. If the time comes that an osCommerce site is targeted by PanIP, we should all contribute to the defense and counter-claim for conspiracy to extort under the RICO laws. Until then, however, it is not our problem and we waste energy worrying.

Monitor this controversy here, which has a mailing list:
http://www.youmaybenext.com/

BTW, this thread should be on the E-Commerce Laws forum:
http://forums.oscommerce.com/viewforum.php?f=8

[Ian-San]

Just out of interest I pointless add that British Telecommunications Research Labs at Adastral Park, Martlesham, actually invented and patented the hypertext link many years ago but when they recently went to court to see if they had any grounds to enforce the patent, they failed on the basis, I believe, that hypertext had become common usage so could not be the subject of a patent.

[ocularmagic]

I reported this to the Attorney General of California stating that I was somewhat fearful of opening an online business for fear of being sued by this company. If anyone else feels the same way they can send in a general consumer complaint. I would imagine, the more the better. http://caag.state.ca.us/contact/index.htm